|
View previous topic :: View next topic
|
| Author |
Message |
Torma Usuda

Joined: 16 Aug 2013 Location: Moerovia
|
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:20 am |
|
|
| analogos wrote: |
nobody in this thread really said anything about revengeance.
have fun ok bye |
What are you talkin' about, dude?
We were talking about Revengeance up above. Like, almost immediately above.
I'm not going to possibly necro a thread to post an incredibly incidental piece of information.
This isn't a thesis defense. This isn't the Metal Gear Country Club. I'm sorry I wore white after Labor Day, man. I'm sorry I didn't drink my cup of tea with my pinky out. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
neva-01

Joined: 20 Jan 2011 Location: stl
|
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:25 am |
|
|
My impression of the original MGRising was that it would be the first game to (really) let you be a Predator from the Predator movie. So, yeah, there would be stealth, but it reward close combat as well, and close combat wouldn't be combo oriented, but about killing guys with a sword, somewhat akin to how that would work in real life. Revengeance is fine; I'm not saying it's a shitty game. But, to me, it was a poor replacement for what could have been a way more interesting game. How many high caliber DMC/NG/Bayonetta style games do we already have? I like those games a lot, but MGRising looked like it would be something new. _________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
analogos bravely default crying fairy

Joined: 10 Jun 2007
|
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:21 am |
|
|
| Torma Usuda wrote: |
What are you talkin' about, dude?
We were talking about Revengeance up above. Like, almost immediately above. |
some speculation about the development process that resulted in the decision to abandon whatever MGR used to be isn't an engagement of what Revengeance ultimately ended up being or why it is or is not liked. i didn't mean that this is the wrong thread to talk about that game, i meant if you were curious about what anyone here has to say about it here's 16 pages of that.
also feel free to revive any thread if you have anything to say about anything.
| neva-01 wrote: |
| How many high caliber DMC/NG/Bayonetta style games do we already have? |
not many.
i don't really disagree with the rest of what you're saying, though. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Dark Age Iron Savior king of finders

Joined: 06 Dec 2006 Location: Spacecraft, Juanelia Country
|
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:57 am |
|
|
I admit I haven't really played anything from this console generation except stuff like the Lost Planet demo for PC, but I was under the impression that the genres of Sneaking Action and Stylish Action weren't nearly as robustly represented in quality A~AAAAA titles. At least at SB, while there was a good show of support for Bayonetta and a number of indie titles or maybe sleeper hits, there didn't seem to be a lot of collective enthusiasm for the latest Devil May Crys, Splinter Cells, MGS4, etcetera.
I guess there were the portable Metal Gears and maybe Deus Ex 3 and such, but it seems like one of the bigger things missing from this generation (for a large variety of reasons) was the tightness and focus that made those two genres really stand out during the PS2 era. Instead we saw a lot more open-world or multiplayer or customization-focused stuff. I'm not really complaining (I haven't played any of these games, after all), and I'm not saying there was a critical shortage of satisfactory stealth or slashing or shooting, but I don't think the competence and care put into the Rising we got should be discounted.
And again, I say this as the guy who fantasized about a sweeping experience that explored both Raiden as shadow-lurking, robot-carving, cyber-spinal-fluid-drinking predator and him as this almost Marvel-worthy increasingly tragic character who lived as a child soldier and went on a daring raid into Area 51 to rescue Olga's child and got turned into a nearly inhuman cyborg and also there was that thing about studying as a tracker from an Alaskan shaman and who knows what else.
I suppose I'm just using Blade Mode on a dead horse at this point.
Speaking of horses, do you think Big Boss will be able to kill and eat horses? Like maybe he rides one off a cliff and he survives but the horse is crippled and well, it would be a waste, right? |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
neva-01

Joined: 20 Jan 2011 Location: stl
|
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:02 am |
|
|
| analogos wrote: |
| not many. |
well i mean a lot compared to this predator game i want. _________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
neva-01

Joined: 20 Jan 2011 Location: stl
|
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:04 am |
|
|
| Dark Age Iron Savior wrote: |
| Speaking of horses, do you think Big Boss will be able to kill and eat horses? Like maybe he rides one off a cliff and he survives but the horse is crippled and well, it would be a waste, right? |
better yet, the horse poofs into a can of twirling dog food when it hits the ground. _________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
shrugtheironteacup man of tomorrow

Joined: 06 Dec 2006 Location: a meat
|
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:18 am |
|
|
don't worry everyone Riddick 3: Maybe Better Than Dark Athena?!?? is on the way for all your stealthshanking needs _________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Toptube Anti-cabbage Party Candidate
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
|
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:55 am |
|
|
| Dark Age Iron Savior wrote: |
I admit I haven't really played anything from this console generation except stuff like the Lost Planet demo for PC, but I was under the impression that the genres of Sneaking Action and Stylish Action weren't nearly as robustly represented in quality A~AAAAA titles. At least at SB, while there was a good show of support for Bayonetta and a number of indie titles or maybe sleeper hits, there didn't seem to be a lot of collective enthusiasm for the latest Devil May Crys, Splinter Cells, MGS4, etcetera.
I guess there were the portable Metal Gears and maybe Deus Ex 3 and such, but it seems like one of the bigger things missing from this generation (for a large variety of reasons) was the tightness and focus that made those two genres really stand out during the PS2 era. Instead we saw a lot more open-world or multiplayer or customization-focused stuff. I'm not really complaining (I haven't played any of these games, after all), and I'm not saying there was a critical shortage of satisfactory stealth or slashing or shooting, but I don't think the competence and care put into the Rising we got should be discounted.
And again, I say this as the guy who fantasized about a sweeping experience that explored both Raiden as shadow-lurking, robot-carving, cyber-spinal-fluid-drinking predator and him as this almost Marvel-worthy increasingly tragic character who lived as a child soldier and went on a daring raid into Area 51 to rescue Olga's child and got turned into a nearly inhuman cyborg and also there was that thing about studying as a tracker from an Alaskan shaman and who knows what else.
I suppose I'm just using Blade Mode on a dead horse at this point.
Speaking of horses, do you think Big Boss will be able to kill and eat horses? Like maybe he rides one off a cliff and he survives but the horse is crippled and well, it would be a waste, right? |
The Splinter Cell game from the beginning of this generation was pretty solid. It was made before "next gen" became "streamline everything into barely needing to do anything". Also, the PS2 version of that game was really solid, as well. and featured some extra content. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Dark Age Iron Savior king of finders

Joined: 06 Dec 2006 Location: Spacecraft, Juanelia Country
|
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:55 am |
|
|
| neva-01 wrote: |
| better yet, the horse poofs into a can of twirling dog food when it hits the ground. |
You know, I've been assuming that the hallucinations are mainly a cutscene thing, but they would be a great/insulting way to introduce silly Kojima wall-breaking into the game. Big Boss enters an enemy base to find it being patrolled by floating rations. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
CubaLibre the road lawyer

Joined: 02 Mar 2007 Location: Balmer
|
Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:04 am |
|
|
| neva-01 wrote: |
| My impression of the original MGRising was that it would be the first game to (really) let you be a Predator from the Predator movie. |
AVP let you be a pretty good Predator. _________________ Let's Play, starring me. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Iacus

Joined: 04 Dec 2006 Location: Stockholm
|
Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:37 pm |
|
|
| Dracko wrote: |
 |
Hah. This is either going to be a brilliant troll or a horrible trainwreck.
Either way, I'm sure it will be remembered for ages
| neva-01 wrote: |
| I think his mask really came off, at least for me, with his wholehearted endorsement of the abysmal Twin Snakes remake (with the remade cut-scenes by Ryuhei Kitamura), and his naked joy at Platinum games turning the once understated and intriguing MG:Rising into Devil May Cry. |
I don't think I'd call it "wholehearted endorsement" when he basically ignores its existence and makes sure to remove every possible reference to Twin Snakes, to the point where flashback screenshots of the events of MGS in later games are taken from the PSX games even though the TTS art style would be more consistent with the rest.
As for Revengeance. I'm totally down with playing other directors and other studios' take on estabilished franchises like MGS. Revengeance wasn't some gratuitous outsourcing of the MGS name. It was endorsed and supervised by Kojipro while letting Platinum do their own thing. If you played it you'd see it's pretty much a Metal gear game, even if it totally isn't.
| Torma Usuda wrote: |
EDIT: Anyone who thinks I'm coming out too strongly to defend Kojima needs to realize that I understand that the dude just fucking hates gay people and I'm really weirded out by that. |
Does he?
I mean, I'm honestly asking. He may have said some bigoted things about gays but as has been pointed out elsewhere, not even hollywood has characters like Scott Dolph, a black gay man in the military and I'm inclined to think that someone who hated gay people wouldn't think to create characters such as that, however minor they might be. _________________ Guayaba 2600 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
neva-01

Joined: 20 Jan 2011 Location: stl
|
Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:08 pm |
|
|
| Iacus wrote: |
 |
I remember when you'd undress EVA in MGS3 in the status screen, you'd see her scars, and he did that again in Peace Walker with the teenage girl, where if you zoomed in enough in the cutscene to look at her under her clothes, you'd see how scarred up she is. I used to think that was a way of jolting you out of your prurience--that's definitely what he wants you to think--but now I think he's just a prurient Japanese guy who's into brutalized women.
| Dracko wrote: |
| I don't think I'd call it "wholehearted endorsement" when he basically ignores its existence and makes sure to remove every possible reference to Twin Snakes, to the point where flashback screenshots of the events of MGS in later games are taken from the PSX games even though the TTS art style would be more consistent with the rest. |
I saw some kind of making-of vignette somewhere where he seemed really pleased. Maybe I make too much of these things.
| Quote: |
| As for Revengeance. I'm totally down with playing other directors and other studios' take on estabilished franchises like MGS. Revengeance wasn't some gratuitous outsourcing of the MGS name. It was endorsed and supervised by Kojipro while letting Platinum do their own thing. If you played it you'd see it's pretty much a Metal gear game, even if it totally isn't. |
I played it. I even enjoyed it, and the cutting thing is still kind of cool, but aside from that I'd be just as happy playing NG2 or 3. _________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Winona Ghost Ryder lives in a monochromatic world

Joined: 04 Dec 2006
|
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Iacus

Joined: 04 Dec 2006 Location: Stockholm
|
Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:50 pm |
|
|
| Winona Ghost Ryder wrote: |
| http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/09/15/hideo-kojima-is-in-trouble-with-the-tgs-demo-of-metal-gear-solid-v-enemies-are-too-unpredictable/ |
Excuse the crappy demonstration! our AI is just too good! _________________ Guayaba 2600 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Torma Usuda

Joined: 16 Aug 2013 Location: Moerovia
|
Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:48 pm |
|
|
| Iacus wrote: |
| Torma Usuda wrote: |
EDIT: Anyone who thinks I'm coming out too strongly to defend Kojima needs to realize that I understand that the dude just fucking hates gay people and I'm really weirded out by that. |
Does he?
I mean, I'm honestly asking. He may have said some bigoted things about gays but as has been pointed out elsewhere, not even hollywood has characters like Scott Dolph, a black gay man in the military and I'm inclined to think that someone who hated gay people wouldn't think to create characters such as that, however minor they might be. |
I've missed a few games, but each time there's a homosexual character, the whole thing is played off like a joke. It's the video game equivalent of that uncle who's trying to make small talk around the turkey, so he starts saying something racist.
Scott Dolph would have been a good example if it wasn't for the fact that--and maybe I'm wrong about this--his relationship with a character literally named Vamp feels like it's a joke without a punchline. "Haha, ghey." It's not put like anything else in the Metal Gear series. We're supposed to find it funny, I think, that Fortune's bisexual dad had sex with her weirdo teammate. "What's up with that, dawg?!" asked the frat boy with a backwards baseball cap, beer bong in hand.
And Dolph's the best homosexual in the series. It always seems to come up, and it's always in this "but aren't they BIZARRE" tone. Vamp is...well. Raiden's scene with the President. Volgin and Raidenovitch. I'm not going to say Metal Gear Solid is a "serious" series, but the characters are typically serious people until they're homosexual, in which case they're basically caricatures. It's weird.
I'm not some big fucking bleeding heart, either. I don't usually get upset about this sort of thing. I could normally say 'oh, well, that's just how Japan works' and forget about it. But I found out a friend of mine was gay around the time I played MGS2, and as I've gotten more sensitive to those issues I can't help but recall how bizarre all that shit was. It really does stand out from the tone of everything else.
Kojima's got issues with gay people, maybe. Maybe he got better by the time of MGS4. Maybe it's, I don't know, some bizarre meta-meta-commentary on metrosexuality and Japan's "herbivorous" men, and that's why Snake has some much facial hair. But it weirds me out. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
idle QUAD DAMAGE!!!

Joined: 10 Jun 2007
|
Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:34 am |
|
|
| Torma Usuda wrote: |
| Scott Dolph would have been a good example if it wasn't for the fact that--and maybe I'm wrong about this--his relationship with a character literally named Vamp feels like it's a joke without a punchline. |
Maybe it feels like there's no punchline because there isn't a joke...?
Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, but we don't find out about Dolph's relationship with Vamp until after the former is already dead, and nobody really comments on him when it's revealed. The revelation of Vamp being bisexual is played as a bit of a shock laugh, but that's because it's a swerve on his codename. Everyone reasonably expected he got it because of his vampire-like qualities up to that point.
I was going to say Volgin was a pretty badass gay dude, but I think he probably has sex with Eva at one point? Kojima sure loves him some bisexual characters. Either way he's not really a joke.
Raidenovitch was definitely a HAHA RAIDEN'S SO GAY joke, though. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
parkbench

Joined: 12 Dec 2006
|
Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:22 am |
|
|
I think Torma is right about gay minstrelsy. It's very common, and you just come to wince every time you see a character who you know is not given the depth any other would be given as a matter of course. Homosexuality is weird scary marionette that's dangled in front of the player every once in awhile, nothing more. Which truthfully sucks. _________________ metafilter vs. youtube comments |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
allensmithee polyglamorous

Joined: 21 Apr 2011 Location: wherever it is, im dying to get out
|
Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:48 am |
|
|
the reason kojima loves the bisexual characters is because there is a lack of conviction to make any character full gay. it's half-stepping. _________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Iacus

Joined: 04 Dec 2006 Location: Stockholm
|
Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:06 pm |
|
|
| allensmithee wrote: |
| the reason kojima loves the bisexual characters is because there is a lack of conviction to make any character full gay. it's half-stepping. |
Not trying to be offended by proxy or anything, but I have the impression most bisexuals would object to their sexuality being described as "half-stepping". _________________ Guayaba 2600 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
This Machine Kills Fascis Unfinite Indiscovery

Joined: 06 Dec 2006 Location: Inside Thomas the Tank Engine, screaming
|
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:43 am |
|
|
I think allen is saying that from Kojima's warped perspective, having a character be bi- is "half-stepping"
Like, he's too afraid to make a gay character, so he makes a bi- character to get some of the gay flavor (for cheap jokes or to appear progressive), perhaps because declaring a character to be gay would "change the way the way the fans think about him," or something.
So Kojima is "half-stepping" by creating fictional bi- characters instead; the sentiment is not that real people who are bi- are "half-stepping" in their sexual preferences or that creating bi- characters in general is somehow not as good as creating a gay character. _________________ "Godzilla could be anyone."
| MrSkeleton wrote: |
| i dont know how to give a thing made of blood but id do it |
| evnvnv wrote: |
| If you die in the axe, you die in real life |
|
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Tulpa

Joined: 31 Jul 2008
|
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:29 am |
|
|
| Quote: |
| that creating bi- characters in general is somehow not as good as creating a gay character. |
that literally is the sentiment expressed above, what are you even talking about. _________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
allensmithee polyglamorous

Joined: 21 Apr 2011 Location: wherever it is, im dying to get out
|
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:32 pm |
|
|
i dont see there being any interest in creating bi characters but rather like its something kojima thinks is funny almost. _________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Iacus

Joined: 04 Dec 2006 Location: Stockholm
|
Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:56 pm |
|
|
| This Machine Kills Fascis wrote: |
| I think allen is saying that from Kojima's warped perspective, having a character be bi- is "half-stepping". |
Come on now. Assumptions of authorial intent and perspective are inherently external to the work here. This is equally true of benign ones made in good faith as well as those that assume malice or a "warped perspective", however informed that might be.
Also, not saying that smithee was doing this in this particular case, but if you are going to make the argument that a work of fiction X is racist/sexist/homophobic because Y element, as represented in the context of such fiction, doesn't accurately and completely regard the whole spectrum of human values and situations, (see: Human Revolution's infamous black hobo character) you can't really expect to make a comment on such element as if it suddenly doesn't apply back to the real world issue you were comparing it to begin with. This kind of argumentation cuts both ways. _________________ Guayaba 2600 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Persona mobile

Joined: 11 Aug 2012
|
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Dark Age Iron Savior king of finders

Joined: 06 Dec 2006 Location: Spacecraft, Juanelia Country
|
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:39 am |
|
|
| Gotta be CG. No way Kojima is that thin. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
schroeder

Joined: 06 Mar 2013 Location: Interior of mind n+1
|
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:52 pm |
|
|
| So much respect for the precision tears in the stockings. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Iacus

Joined: 04 Dec 2006 Location: Stockholm
|
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:09 pm |
|
|
The actual human cosplayer looks more lifeless than the CGI.
I-is this the power of the next-gen? _________________ Guayaba 2600 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Guillotine

Joined: 05 May 2008
|
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:51 pm |
|
|
| Kojima was so much cooler when I wasn't able to read his thoughts daily. And when I was 14. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Iacus

Joined: 04 Dec 2006 Location: Stockholm
|
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:00 pm |
|
|
| Guillotine wrote: |
| Kojima was so much cooler when I wasn't able to read his thoughts daily. And when I was 14. |
Dude eats well, though. _________________ Guayaba 2600 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Brooks

Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Location: peak caucasity
|
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:04 pm |
|
|
| Piss tier |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
shnozlak

Joined: 05 Dec 2006 Location: pushing crates in the sewer level
|
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:43 pm |
|
|
Deploy streams of urine to distract dogs and disgust guards.
Buy urine stream extender straw to extend urine stream and precise aim with nanno-machine infused urine shot. _________________ Mixtapes galore ~ VG MUSIC
ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ http://phantom-photon.tumblr.com/ |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
parker a wolf adventuring

Joined: 31 May 2007 Location: suplex city
|
Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:07 pm |
|
|
That can't even be real, her name is AI HONEY it's a kojima trick, get an axe _________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Takashi

Joined: 04 Dec 2006
|
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Iacus

Joined: 04 Dec 2006 Location: Stockholm
|
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:52 pm |
|
|
| Takashi wrote: |
| parker wrote: |
| That can't even be real, her name is AI HONEY it's a Snatcher, get an axe |
|
That would explain the vacant stare and plasticky skin _________________ Guayaba 2600 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Rei sexy mf'er
Joined: 12 Sep 2011
|
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:24 pm |
|
|
Last edited by Rei on Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
shrugtheironteacup man of tomorrow

Joined: 06 Dec 2006 Location: a meat
|
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:43 pm |
|
|
you will believe a woman can tan _________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Rei sexy mf'er
Joined: 12 Sep 2011
|
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:37 am |
|
|
Last edited by Rei on Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
shrugtheironteacup man of tomorrow

Joined: 06 Dec 2006 Location: a meat
|
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:41 am |
|
|
All of that seems more likely to happen than not to my tin ear. _________________
 |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Rei sexy mf'er
Joined: 12 Sep 2011
|
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:42 am |
|
|
Last edited by Rei on Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Dark Age Iron Savior king of finders

Joined: 06 Dec 2006 Location: Spacecraft, Juanelia Country
|
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:05 am |
|
|
huh, never knew that. Guess that adds some context to some bits of manga I've read over the years.
I'm still holding out some hope that, in light of the game setting and trailer scenes, the biggest "taboo" theme will be child soldiers. I mean, I haven't looked at any of the recent media for the game, but I assume those haven't been shown, and a specific class of enemy seems like one of the few significant things Kojima could still keep under wraps and hope to shock people with. It might also have some real chance of evoking serious and meaningful reactions from the majority that will consume the product, as opposed to Bioshock Infinite or Spec Ops: The Line-style "you told us to nod and now we are nodding". |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
Ni Go Zero Ichi

Joined: 10 Sep 2011
|
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:09 am |
|
|
| Rei wrote: |
Worried about something. I really hope they don't do it.
Quiet's skin pigmentation turns darker when she steps into the shadows. One subject the game purportedly tackles is how societies treat one differently depending on their appearance.
I'm really worried that they're gonna do blackface Quiet. That's her big secret, her comic-book super power.
What if Quiet goes in front of different people and they attack her or shout epithets?
What if you play her and/or they have her hide in the shadows and her skin turns darker and she gets a fucking camo index bonus?
What if being perceived as "black" or "white" is some dumbfuck disguise and whether you go into alert mode in some areas depends on what race you are?
That would be a first: racism bleeding into the game mechanics. In 2014. God damn it.
Reminds me of this: http://whenwillthehurtingstop.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/whack-history-month-many-of-more.html |
I cannot even tell if you actually believe this _________________ Just another savage day on Planet Earth. |
|
| Filter / Back to top |
|
 |
|