[secret character]

Zelda canon exists. For many a year since A Link to the Past was first released, fans speculated about how the games might be connected, since obviously LttP did not make any real reference to the plot of the first two games. Was it an alternate universe? Did it take place in the distant future from the NES games? Or maybe the distant past? Many theories were put forward, formulated using any little shred of information that could be gleaned from anything Zelda related, and fandom continued being fandom.

Of course many of us also simply liked the idea that each game was a new start, that Lttp's Link didn't necessarily have to be the great-great-great-great-ad-nauseum grandson (or great-nephew) of the Link of Ocarina of Time.

Unfortunately for us, not too long ago, longtime Zelda fanboy and director Eiji Aonuma released a book called Hyrule Historia. Within this book, among other things, was an Official Zelda Timeline, to the horror and delight of fans everywhere. Finally confirmation from the God of Zelda (Miyamoto who?) that they had been right all along. Or not quite right, but at least on the right track. (Spirit Tracks pun har har.) At least, it was mud in the eyes of all the naysayers who thought Zelda didn't need a plot.

So here I present to you, The Official Timeline:


wait no, here:



So. Today, Hyrule Warriors (name not final) was announced. A Zelda game in the style of the Musou/Warriors series by Koei's Omega Force team. A Zelda game that's not a Zelda game. But I digress.

This announcement brings up many questions; some might ask, "What in the fuck, what is going on at Nintendo, this is insane," (which has a question in it even if the point is more of a declaration of exasperation.) The True Fans, however, will be asking, "Where does this fit in the timeline(s)???" (precisely as fervently as three question marks would suggest.)

In this thread, I would like to have a rollicking argument about video games. However, not about whether a Zelda canon should exist; we passed the point of no return long ago. No, let's argue about Zelda canon. Seriously. Is the timeline right? Are there any inconsistencies? (Link used the full goddamn Triforce in LttP, Ganon shouldn't even be revivable after that, come the fuck on.) I know some of you are equipped for this, it's time to come out of the shadows (even I'm above a dark world pun there) and rant about Zelda canon shamelessly and heatedly.

Yes Link's Awakening is the best game in the series, okay.
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[BenoitRen]

I think the timeline mostly makes sense. It's the "hero of Time is not successful" part that I think is bullshit.

A Link to the Past doesn't even fit there, as the backstory mentions Ganon randomly stumbling into the Sacred Realm and discovering the Triforce. Plus, the evil never exited the Dark World because it was sealed by seven wise men (who were all human as evidenced by their descendants seen in the game, with no Kokiri, Gorons or Zoras to be seen among them).

The only games that are really consistent with each other are the direct sequels, like Ocarina of Time and The Wind Waker. Twilight Princess's geography doesn't match, the Master Sword isn't in the Temple of Time, and the latter is bigger and different.

I'm almost at the end of Skyward Sword, which raises its own questions in respects to the gods. The entire series makes mention of the three gods who created the Triforce, and this game introduces a single goddess who is implied to not be associated with them.
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Get Xenoblade Chronicles!

[secret character]

I suspect Aonuma found the first 3 (or 4) games to be kind of an obstacle in realizing his vision of a Zelda timeline, which is why they all get stuffed on a dumb alternate timeline that doesn't even make sense except as an excuse to ignore those games.

Of course, fanboy that he is, Zelda Musou is probably going to try to explain exactly how that timeline happens. Because he really can't resist.

And yeah, Skyward Sword's plot seems to have arisen out of needing to explain the Master Sword (no it can't just exist, it had to come from somewhere (and no it's not the Four Sword)) and the previously seemingly-inconsistent uses of "Hylia" and "Hyrule".
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[A New Duck]

I am not terribly invested in a canon (so maybe I shouldn't be in here), but I always liked the idea that the games were, in a very real sense, legends, so with each telling, the same characters, locations, and basic events go down (or depending on where we are the development in the story cycle, the characters and other elements may or may not make an appearance) but it gets messed with a little in each iteration, varying wildly over time, and sometimes adopting really different themes and devices. Hence, Hyrule, Zelda, Link, and Ganon will always stay pretty fixed in their roles, but everything else can kinda move about (Impa always with a support role of some kind, certain towns being prominent, now we got a wise old tree).

Obviously, that doesn't gel with official declarations and the growing, more insistent timeline connections within the games themselves (that are still kinda confused, but Skyward Sword really needs to be the first game chronologically somehow, and that bleeds into the presentation of the game without really adding much of interest).

Anyway, Zelda Musou looks like Skyward Sword from what's been shown, so maybe it'll be a weird, Dynasty Warriors-style retelling of Skyward Sword specifically? Or another game (Twilight Princess? Ocarina?)? Of the "legend" as a whole?

Also, Zelda Musou looks fun.
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[Gorblax]

I am at work, man. I will get fired.
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[misadventurous]

i violently hate "canon" so all i have to say here is that i am pleased to learn that it is 2013 and there is a new Zelda that is apparently pretty good.

hyrule warriors is like the opposite of what i want Zelda to be though

[Rokkan]

so does that mean that Zelda is now part of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms canon or


which timeline does Sun Quan lives, again?

[notbov]

I will happily have this discussion when they figure out which ending of OoT is canon

do the first 4 games happen every time I Game Over in OoT

does this magically banish those games since we should assume that the Hero of Time winning is canonical by virtue of the actual narrative of the game ending after you win

did he just direct a game that takes place in a timeline that logically shouldn't exist because he actually doesn't care about it and wants to make Nintendo money

could you, in theory, go back in time after the events in LA and cause the Hero of Time to win, thus creating a time paradox

[BenoitRen]

[notbov]

it is an honest-to-God serious question

OoT, as a written, plotted product, prior to the unveiling of this canon, had one (1) ending. it is not a game with multiple endings. you go around, do some stuff, seal Ganon away, you're a kid, The End. everyone get's the same damn thing. that would be Hero of Time succeeds ending.

so, what is the Hero of Time fails ending? is it a thing that happens when I Game Over? is it a secret thing, hidden deep within the swirling mass of OoT's data? or is it just a thing made up and shoved into an existing canon because guy looked at those first four games and realized he didn't have a place for them?

it would be one thing if there were multiple endings and they canonized ending X (fighting games do this all the time) or they did some side-story nonsense going "Well, actually....", but as the canon exists now, that branch just seems like a "what if" alternate timeline (which is also a thing games do a bunch, they usually say so before hand).
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[Rokkan]

the only timeline Zelda needs imo is Ocarina of Time -> Majora's Mask and Wind Waker and ALttP -> ALttP 2

i like to pretend that either everything else didnt exist or are just stories on their own and its super silly to force continuity on them

Majora's Mask and Wind Waker are great because it uses "continuity" to sort of contextualize their stories' messaging, not caring much about how those games fit the timeline or the world of zelda, just using the "prequels" as a tool for their own stories instead of the opposite like Skyward Sword felt like.


now it feels that every game has to fit ~the timeline~ or how the world of zelda is ~supposed to be like~ and it's so restrictive and stupid. i hope the devs really really stop caring about it. piecing together a timeline is fun for a fan and throwing little nods and hints in the games merely as vague suggestions with very open interpretations is cool, anything beyond that just disservices the games as their own things, which i feel is the strong point of zelda always, considering how much the games have shifted tonality and art style between them


also: if rumors are true, then its pretty shitty that nintendo was restrictive of their IP to Retro Studios but gladly permitted the Dynasty Warriors people to meddle with it. I mean, it's cool that we're getting someone else's interpretation of a Zelda game, but I'd also love to see Retro's take.

[Jigsaw]

[secret character]

[secret character]

[Rokkan]

re: Hyrule Warriors, i've been seeing some speculation that it's going to be based on a manga that is prequel to Skyward Sword because Link in it has a scarf much like the manga's Link


one thing that I'm actually disappointed that Skyward Sword didn't address is the Sheikah tribe. that was probably the only thing that I really really wanted to see cleared up or know about its origins

[BenoitRen]

[Ni Go Zero Ichi]

I know more about Zelda canon than I should but I also kind of hate every Zelda game after Wind Waker on those grounds.

Zelda Musou is obv. non-canon, just like Link's Crossbow Training

I hope
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Just another savage day on Planet Earth.

[secret character]

[notbov]

yeah, I'm fine with the idea that the Adult/Kid Link timelines being separate but equal in terms of existence, but the "failing" branch of canon just seems like it was pulled out of thin air. I'd rather they just make that its own thing while having SS>TP>OoT>Adult and/or Kid be a canon onto itself.
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[Ni Go Zero Ichi]

Putting it out there right now that Wind Waker is the only game in the series to use its direct canon relationship to a past game in any meaningful, non-fanservicey way.
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Just another savage day on Planet Earth.

[BenoitRen]

[A New Duck]

[Renfrew]

I think it would be pretty neat if they would use the engine they used for 3ds Occarina of Time to start making sequels to The 64 duology in the style of those games. Link could just be wandering around the world, slightly older in each installment, going to new lands or falling in new portals to alternate dimensions
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[Levi]

startled into checking date on first post to see if it was 2006

[Ni Go Zero Ichi]

Canon-wise, Zelda kinda runs into the same problem as Castlevania in that the developers really obviously only started caring about plot after they'd already been making the games for like 15 years, at which point a dedicated series producer came onto the scene (Aonuma and Igarashi, respectively) and took it upon himself to try and fashion a coherent timeline out of a bunch of games that clearly had little to no thought put into anything resembling continuity. The results, predictably, are a schizophrenic mess.

Really I'm still convinced (despite Link Between Worlds restoring some of my faith in the series) that Zelda just needs a complete franchise reboot, where all the shackles of series canon and gameplay traditions are dropped save for a few essential elements (the Triforce, the Link/Zelda/Ganondorf trinity, the general mythology of Hyrule, the whimsical/mythic tone, the puzzle/action gameplay, the emphasis on exploration, etc.) and a team of totally fresh-faced developers (like, say, Retro Studios) are allowed a chance at radically reimagining the game for a different era. Kind of like what Lords of Shadow was supposed to be, minus the all-around mediocrity.

It's bern way too long since Nintendo did anything to shock their fans.
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Just another savage day on Planet Earth.

[Glam Grimfire]

that's not true, they just handed the zelda license to koei hopefully forever


i wonder if lu bu will be in this
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##SKELETON PARTY (new article as of 04/26/14)Grim

[shnozlak]

I hope not, Koei is a garbage C-tier developer.

Making a timeline or caring about one is just going to make things even bigger and dumber with ever increasing levels of exposition and TALKTALKTALKTALK

The officiality of the timeline is the worst thing to happen to the series since Skyward Sword.
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[Glam Grimfire]

hey shnozlak could you do us all a favor and not disrespect the op
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##SKELETON PARTY (new article as of 04/26/14)Grim

[Felix]

[schroeder]

Midichlorian Syndrome claims another victim.

My personal Zelda canon is like A New Duck's: One story, told and embellished again and again. I mean, I get that this thread isn't about that and I'm sorry. But I like looking at the world of each game and trying to plot its mythical features against some (always unseen) "real" Hyrule. In this case any inconsistencies are just poetic license, like the parting of the Red Sea vs. Sea of Reeds.

[Glam Grimfire]

so really there's only going to be two ways this works out i've realized:


a Soul Calibur: Legends affair in bland mediocrity and an attempt to explain away background details
that no-one really cared about besides people who played Soul Calibur for it's riveting, hollywood-esque writing.

OR

a Dynasty Warriors Gundam type crossover, and barring the name Hyrule Heroes, I think it's more likely this isn't canon at all, and probably some type of Subspace Emissary level of fuckery.
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##SKELETON PARTY (new article as of 04/26/14)Grim

[Ni Go Zero Ichi]

[Ni Go Zero Ichi]

[A New Duck]

Are there games that explicitly mention other games other than:

LoZ-AoL

Ocarina-Majora's-Wind Waker

ALTTP-ALBW (I'm assuming, and maybe Link's Awakening?)
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[A New Duck]

If somebody inside Nintendo wants to turn Ocarina 3DS into an internal 3D Zelda Classic, that'd be rockin'.
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[schroeder]

[Dark Age Iron Savior]

[BenoitRen]

[A New Duck]

I must confess I spent little to no time with Skyward Sword, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks.
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[Ni Go Zero Ichi]

[evnvnv]