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secret character

Joined: 12 Jul 2008
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:57 pm Post subject: Goddamn Zelda Canon Thread (yes, seriously) |
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Zelda canon exists. For many a year since A Link to the Past was first released, fans speculated about how the games might be connected, since obviously LttP did not make any real reference to the plot of the first two games. Was it an alternate universe? Did it take place in the distant future from the NES games? Or maybe the distant past? Many theories were put forward, formulated using any little shred of information that could be gleaned from anything Zelda related, and fandom continued being fandom.
Of course many of us also simply liked the idea that each game was a new start, that Lttp's Link didn't necessarily have to be the great-great-great-great-ad-nauseum grandson (or great-nephew) of the Link of Ocarina of Time.
Unfortunately for us, not too long ago, longtime Zelda fanboy and director Eiji Aonuma released a book called Hyrule Historia. Within this book, among other things, was an Official Zelda Timeline, to the horror and delight of fans everywhere. Finally confirmation from the God of Zelda (Miyamoto who?) that they had been right all along. Or not quite right, but at least on the right track. (Spirit Tracks pun har har.) At least, it was mud in the eyes of all the naysayers who thought Zelda didn't need a plot.
So here I present to you, The Official Timeline:
wait no, here:
So. Today, Hyrule Warriors (name not final) was announced. A Zelda game in the style of the Musou/Warriors series by Koei's Omega Force team. A Zelda game that's not a Zelda game. But I digress.
This announcement brings up many questions; some might ask, "What in the fuck, what is going on at Nintendo, this is insane," (which has a question in it even if the point is more of a declaration of exasperation.) The True Fans, however, will be asking, "Where does this fit in the timeline(s)???" (precisely as fervently as three question marks would suggest.)
In this thread, I would like to have a rollicking argument about video games. However, not about whether a Zelda canon should exist; we passed the point of no return long ago. No, let's argue about Zelda canon. Seriously. Is the timeline right? Are there any inconsistencies? (Link used the full goddamn Triforce in LttP, Ganon shouldn't even be revivable after that, come the fuck on.) I know some of you are equipped for this, it's time to come out of the shadows (even I'm above a dark world pun there) and rant about Zelda canon shamelessly and heatedly.
Yes Link's Awakening is the best game in the series, okay. _________________ ☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹
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secret character

Joined: 12 Jul 2008
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:39 pm |
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I suspect Aonuma found the first 3 (or 4) games to be kind of an obstacle in realizing his vision of a Zelda timeline, which is why they all get stuffed on a dumb alternate timeline that doesn't even make sense except as an excuse to ignore those games.
Of course, fanboy that he is, Zelda Musou is probably going to try to explain exactly how that timeline happens. Because he really can't resist.
And yeah, Skyward Sword's plot seems to have arisen out of needing to explain the Master Sword (no it can't just exist, it had to come from somewhere (and no it's not the Four Sword)) and the previously seemingly-inconsistent uses of "Hylia" and "Hyrule". _________________ ☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹
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secret character

Joined: 12 Jul 2008
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:12 pm |
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| notbov wrote: |
it is an honest-to-God serious question
OoT, as a written, plotted product, prior to the unveiling of this canon, had one (1) ending. it is not a game with multiple endings. you go around, do some stuff, seal Ganon away, you're a kid, The End. everyone get's the same damn thing. that would be Hero of Time succeeds ending.
so, what is the Hero of Time fails ending? is it a thing that happens when I Game Over? is it a secret thing, hidden deep within the swirling mass of OoT's data? or is it just a thing made up and shoved into an existing canon because guy looked at those first four games and realized he didn't have a place for them?
it would be one thing if there were multiple endings and they canonized ending X (fighting games do this all the time) or they did some side-story nonsense going "Well, actually....", but as the canon exists now, that branch just seems like a "what if" alternate timeline (which is also a thing games do a bunch, they usually say so before hand). |
OoT actually does present two timelines in the ending; the first is the one you play, where Link awakens all the sages and defeats Ganon and Ganondorf is sealed in the Sacred Realm. Following that ending, the world is pretty much saved but Link and Zelda disappear because they transfer themselves, memories intact, to a time prior to Ganondorf reaching the Sacred Realm in the first place, which begins the second timeline. What happens after that is left unspecified, but one has to assume that Link and Zelda avoid the mistake of unsealing the Sacred Realm and also mount some kind of campaign to stop Ganondorf.
Zelda II makes more sense as a branching point for the "hero defeated" timeline. The game over screen says that Ganon is revived; if you quit the game there, what with Link being dead, it obviously it leads to the Sealing War that precedes LttP.
Zelda II follows The Legend of Zelda, where Ganon is alive and well, but since the game takes place only on a subset of the larger world map we can infer that his influence has not spread very far yet. Obviously he's full-on Ganon, so it has to be post-OoT. Under all those conditions, the first two games should take place as the first things on the "Ganondorf sealed" timeline.
But then if Link dies in Zelda II that means both LttP and Wind Waker follow from that point, somehow. Hm. _________________ ☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹
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secret character

Joined: 12 Jul 2008
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:19 pm |
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| Rokkan wrote: |
the only timeline Zelda needs imo is Ocarina of Time -> Majora's Mask and Wind Waker and ALttP -> ALttP 2
i like to pretend that either everything else didnt exist or are just stories on their own and its super silly to force continuity on them
Majora's Mask and Wind Waker are great because it uses "continuity" to sort of contextualize their stories' messaging, not caring much about how those games fit the timeline or the world of zelda, just using the "prequels" as a tool for their own stories instead of the opposite like Skyward Sword felt like.
now it feels that every game has to fit ~the timeline~ or how the world of zelda is ~supposed to be like~ and it's so restrictive and stupid. i hope the devs really really stop caring about it. piecing together a timeline is fun for a fan and throwing little nods and hints in the games merely as vague suggestions with very open interpretations is cool, anything beyond that just disservices the games as their own things, which i feel is the strong point of zelda always, considering how much the games have shifted tonality and art style between them
also: if rumors are true, then its pretty shitty that nintendo was restrictive of their IP to Retro Studios but gladly permitted the Dynasty Warriors people to meddle with it. I mean, it's cool that we're getting someone else's interpretation of a Zelda game, but I'd also love to see Retro's take. |
I tried to address this in the OP because it always comes up and usually manages to stifle what could otherwise be a fun discussion. Yes, Aonuma is a terrible fanboy whose directorship has taken the series in directions it probably shouldn't have gone. However I still find it interesting (for whatever reason, I'm not really sure) to pick over the trashy mess he's made and find possibilities and hints and to speculate about all of it, and I want to share this. _________________ ☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹
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secret character

Joined: 12 Jul 2008
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Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:29 pm |
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| BenoitRen wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But then if Link dies in Zelda II that means both LttP and Wind Waker follow from that point, somehow. Hm. |
Uhh, how do you come to that conclusion? In Adventure of Link, Ganon wasn't sealed away, but killed (in the original game), while he was sealed before The Wind Waker. The latter makes it a point that no hero appeared to repel the evil that freed itself. |
Actually you're right, Wind Waker specifically makes reference to Ganondorf being sealed (not dead) and to the Hero of Time (not just any Link). I was going on the idea that a failed Zelda II would lead to the same scenario in which Hyrule is flooded in a last-ditch effort to deny Ganondorf's victory, but WW's backstory definitely discourages that idea. _________________ ☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹☹
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