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^^^^^
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:11 am |
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| So, Alien: Resurrection = Firefly/Serenity canon? |
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dark steve
secretary of good times
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: long live the new flesh
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:20 am |
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| baby we still miss you |
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^^^^^
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:25 am |
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| I miss the butanpressfight :( |
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dark steve
secretary of good times
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: long live the new flesh
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:11 am |
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when can we be together again :(
we worry :( |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:36 am |
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| Joe wrote: |
| I like to pretend that Firefly is the only thing Joss Whedon has ever worked on. |
I saw the first episode of that the other day. Then I sent the disc back.
It was... Cowboy Bebop Live, except less interesting. Even more boring than Star Wars. Everything felt recycled.
Maybe I'm just not made for space westerns?
Buffy got pretty good after a while, though, once it figured out what it was doing. And judging by the first disc, Angel isn't anywhere near as dull as I expected. It's more like a follow-up to Forever Knight than Buffy. I'm kind of interested in seeing more, actually! |
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Gouki
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Location: Australia.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:07 am |
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| skonrad wrote: |
| Angel is a difficult show to get into mainly because if you miss an episode, you have no idea what's going on. And the first few episodes are a bit shaky while it's hitting its stride. |
From Season 4 (maybe 3), otherwise that is such a crappy excuse. I don't get why people say that outside of the whole Beast/Jasmine sotryline with Angel. I don't get why they say that with the X-Files. About the only show I get it with is Farscape.
Buffy is quite simply one of the best (not "most perfect") television shows ever made. If you don't believe this, it's your loss.
Whedon? His fans, is diehard fans who worship the ground he walks on (or floarts over as they see it), they need to take off the blinkers and accept that he is not the greatest things ever. The people who dismiss his shows based on pissy reasons with no real proof to back them up? they need to realise that he is actually pretty great. A
But the man really struggles with getting comics out on time. I mena, what the fuckl is happening there? We've apparently already got a skip month for Unaways in June or July, Astonishing is so far behind schedule it's not even a joke and Buffy is taking time off soon as well.
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Zebadayus
pelvis othello
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:17 am |
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Television blows.
I do like the Myth Busters and other stuff on the Discovery and History channels, though. |
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Kappuru
forum bishonen
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:50 am |
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I enjoyed Serenity / Firefly a LOT.
You can't take the sky from me.
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:25 am |
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| Eric-Jon Rössel Waugh wrote: |
| Joe wrote: |
| I like to pretend that Firefly is the only thing Joss Whedon has ever worked on. |
I saw the first episode of that the other day. Then I sent the disc back.
It was... Cowboy Bebop Live, except less interesting. Even more boring than Star Wars. Everything felt recycled.
Maybe I'm just not made for space westerns? |
I dunno dude, I don't see much of a relationship between Cowboy Bebop and Firefly at all. They have completely different themes, almost opposite even, though their aesthetic trappings are similar.
Firefly actually has much more in common with Champloo, which in truth is the inversion of Bebop.
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:55 am |
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I'd say they have basically the same theme, except their aesthetic trappings are mostly different. For instance, no '60s mod cool jazz hipster trappings in Firefly. More of an overt Western thing, which is sort of unusual for a space western. Plus large Star Wars influence. Plus a bit of Blade Runner. However, similar rabble of characters running a similar business, under similar circumstances, getting into similar trouble, in a similar universe.
I mean. They're both even named after the ship. Serenity more specifically than Firefly, of course. And it's not like other shows haven't done the same thing. (BSG, Enterprise.) These are the only two cases I can think of offhand, however, where the meaning of the title doesn't become clear until you realize that it does refer to the ship. After about ten minutes, I said to myself "oh, so that's why it's called Firefly. Sort of like... Cowboy Bebop. Hmm."
Of course, after all of this, I'm just going by the first episode here. It didn't inspire me to watch any further. Maybe it goes in a completely different direction, later! |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:09 am |
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| Gouki wrote: |
| About the only show I get it with is Farscape. |
BSG. First thing I saw there was the resurrection ship episode of season two. Ten minutes later, I was doing something else.
If you walk into a monster-of-the-week X-Files episode, you're gold. If you walk into a myth arc one, you're probably in trouble. (I think the movie works out well since there are practically no direct links to what was going on in the show; it's nearly as confusing to regular viewers as to newcomers, with the exception of some character relationships.) Similar deal with Buffy, though after a couple of seasons even the individual episodes tend to be jam-packed with long, "huh?"-causing discussions about things that happened last week or two months ago or two years ago.
I pretty much just watched it on DVD, so that wasn't a problem there. The only way I could penetrate it on TV, earlier on, was on an occasion when some channel was showing an all-day marathon, so after two or three episodes I had a good feel for what everyone was talking about. |
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:17 am |
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| Eric-Jon Rössel Waugh wrote: |
I'd say they have basically the same theme, except their aesthetic trappings are mostly different. For instance, no '60s mod cool jazz hipster trappings in Firefly. More of an overt Western thing, which is sort of unusual for a space western. Plus large Star Wars influence. Plus a bit of Blade Runner. However, similar rabble of characters running a similar business, under similar circumstances, getting into similar trouble, in a similar universe.
I mean. They're both even named after the ship. Serenity more specifically than Firefly, of course. And it's not like other shows haven't done the same thing. (BSG, Enterprise.) These are the only two cases I can think of offhand, however, where the meaning of the title doesn't become clear until you realize that it does refer to the ship. After about ten minutes, I said to myself "oh, so that's why it's called Firefly. Sort of like... Cowboy Bebop. Hmm."
Of course, after all of this, I'm just going by the first episode here. It didn't inspire me to watch any further. Maybe it goes in a completely different direction, later! |
Well I mean, they include a lot of the same tropes and exposition devices. Their themes, though, are totally opposite. Bebop is about confronting the past. Firefly is about building a future. Bebop is quiter, more introspective, and little more chagrined - more Japanese I'd say. Firefly is big and brassy and ballsy and Texan.
Bebop isn't much like a western at all, and I think it gets unfairly labelled as such. Firefly really is like a western, and not just because people ride horses and Mal wears a duster. Bebop is much more akin in content to the beat aesthetic you point out above; it's got more in common with, say, Bullitt, or film noir, than westerns. Sure these genres have more in common than like documentary and slapstick comedy, but they are pretty distinct. Bebop doesn't play like any western I've ever seen. Maybe a Leone western, but those are sort of in their own (awesome!) class.
Because of this surface similarity, the more lighthearted episodes of Firefly resemble the more lighthearted episodes of Bebop. When they each get into some shit, though, the differences come into stark relief.
Also, Firefly never even got to develop, much less conclude, so it's got that working against it. Hard to prove anything about it, when it's so incomplete.
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SplashBeats
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:27 am |
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| I'm sorry that you guys hate fun :( |
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Churippu
Mister Mercury
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Flick of the wrist
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:32 am |
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| zebadayus wrote: |
Television blows.
I do like the Myth Busters and other stuff on the Discovery and History channels, though. |
Shark Week?! :D |
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Marshmallow
just call him badass
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:46 am |
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| Gouki wrote: |
From Season 4 (maybe 3), otherwise that is such a crappy excuse. I don't get why people say that outside of the whole Beast/Jasmine sotryline with Angel. I don't get why they say that with the X-Files. About the only show I get it with is Farscape.
Buffy is quite simply one of the best (not "most perfect") television shows ever made. If you don't believe this, it's your loss.
Whedon? His fans, is diehard fans who worship the ground he walks on (or floarts over as they see it), they need to take off the blinkers and accept that he is not the greatest things ever. The people who dismiss his shows based on pissy reasons with no real proof to back them up? they need to realise that he is actually pretty great. |
You need to shut the fuck up. Like, seriously. |
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:01 pm |
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lol this thread
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:12 pm |
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| is it just not acceptable to buffy fans that people may not like the thing they love? |
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Gin
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:30 pm |
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| lol nerd fight on the internets |
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meauxdal
militant atheist
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Location: georgia, usa
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:53 pm |
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hey xena has a soul!
that's why you should watch it.
although buffy's pretty good, xena is soulful. and probably more fun. yeah.
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RecessRapist
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:13 pm |
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| From about 3rd to 6th grade I watched a friend turn into a fanatic(or maybe he just had the early hots for Sarah Michelle Gellar) and watch every episode religiously. I watched some episodesm as he summed up everything I missed. All this series did was confuse me, I never got why Angel turned evil after fucking with Buffy. |
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:57 pm |
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| CubaLibre wrote: |
| Because of this surface similarity, the more lighthearted episodes of Firefly resemble the more lighthearted episodes of Bebop. When they each get into some shit, though, the differences come into stark relief. |
Okay! Hard to pick that up from the first episode.
I'll still take beatniks in space. |
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Laurel Soup
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Hitsville, USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:27 pm |
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Darlene Conner had Sandman posters!
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:04 pm |
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| Eric-Jon Rössel Waugh wrote: |
| CubaLibre wrote: |
| Because of this surface similarity, the more lighthearted episodes of Firefly resemble the more lighthearted episodes of Bebop. When they each get into some shit, though, the differences come into stark relief. |
Okay! Hard to pick that up from the first episode.
I'll still take beatniks in space. |
Me too!
I'll just take cowboys in space, too. I mean, why discriminate?
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winkerwatson
badmin
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:42 pm |
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Guys Buffy was a pretty entertaining tv show but it was not the pinnacle of anything
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Ebrey
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:33 am |
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| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| is it just not acceptable to buffy fans that people may not like the thing they love? |
I'm not upset that people don't like Buffy (unless they like Firefly - hating Buffy and liking Firefly makes no sense). It's just incredibly uninformed to deny that it was a huge achievement. It works on so many levels that if you're interested in half of what it does it is mind blowing. The editors of Wrapped in Plastic, Spectrum, and Following Cerebus are interested in Buffy as an exploration of passion vs reason. Others care about the gender politics. Still more like it because it's funny and shows hot girls slaying vampires. I'm most impressed by the fact that it has the best long term character development of any TV series, and has moments of emotional honest surpassing anything I've ever seen.
As others have pointed out, Whedon is an inconsistent writer (though the crappy episodes in the first 2 seasons of Buffy are because most of the Buffy writing staff hadn't joined yet). But fuck, since when is consistency the highest goal of an artist? I greatly prefer series that constantly try new things and succeed half the time than ones that keep doing the same thing well.
Eric-Jon - how far are you in Buffy? The first season of all Whedon shows have little purpose except to introduce the characters, though that works better in Buffy than in Angel/Firefly since the Buffy cast is so genius. Angel gets steadily better, until by the last half of the last season it's as good as Buffy at its peak. |
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:33 am |
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| Laurel Soup wrote: |
| Darlene Conner had Sandman posters! |
Sign of shit taste.
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Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:39 am |
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I loathe the Buffy television series, liked the movie, and like Serenity. Just putting that out there.
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Renfrew
catchy, and giger-esque
Joined: 31 Dec 2006
Location: Hometown: America
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:25 am |
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| I liked Angel much more than I liked Buffy, but I'm not sure how much I would like either of them now that my tastes have maybe matured a little. |
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negativedge
banned
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 2:17 am |
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| Man, I always miss these Buffy threads. |
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Ebrey
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:02 am |
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| negativedge wrote: |
| Man, I always miss these Buffy threads. |
The core of this thread was hiding in the comics thread until I asked Toups to split it. |
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Ashura
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: Far East of Eden
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:47 am |
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As an aside, Whedon announced that they're doing Angel Season 6 comics ala the Buffy Season 7 ones.
Also, the pilot for Firefly is somewhat tonally different than the rest of the series, due to the fact that Fox had them tone down Mal's assholishness.
Firefly's a fun watchthrough, though I didn't dig all the Simon and River stuff myself. |
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shrugtheironteacup
man of tomorrow
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: a meat
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:17 am |
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I too dislike Buffy but enjoy Firefly.
I hardly think the latter was perfect, but I liked most of the characters and what was done with them during the series' short run.
The too-overt "western" aesthetic bugged me.
Serenity seemed to neglect all the strengths of the show in favor of "OHGODBIGMOVIESTUFFYEAH!!!" so I didn't think it played too well when compared to Firefly. I unerstand a lot of the choices they made as being more appropriate for a film, but it just makes me think that they never should have tried turning it into a film in the first place.
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diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:54 am |
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| Renfrew wrote: |
| I'm not sure how much I would like either of them now that my tastes have maybe matured a little. |
i saw buffy on and off, like, eight years ago, and i thought it was ridiculous shit then. i wonder how i'd react to it, now! |
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RecessRapist
banned
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:01 am |
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| So do Buffy/Firefly fans also make pairings? |
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Gouki
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Location: Australia.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:45 am |
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| Cycle wrote: |
| Gouki wrote: |
From Season 4 (maybe 3), otherwise that is such a crappy excuse. I don't get why people say that outside of the whole Beast/Jasmine sotryline with Angel. I don't get why they say that with the X-Files. About the only show I get it with is Farscape.
Buffy is quite simply one of the best (not "most perfect") television shows ever made. If you don't believe this, it's your loss.
Whedon? His fans, is diehard fans who worship the ground he walks on (or floarts over as they see it), they need to take off the blinkers and accept that he is not the greatest things ever. The people who dismiss his shows based on pissy reasons with no real proof to back them up? they need to realise that he is actually pretty great. |
You need to shut the fuck up. Like, seriously. |
Care to elaborate?
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aderack
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:20 am |
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| Ebrey wrote: |
| Eric-Jon - how far are you in Buffy? |
I finished a while back. The writing was really hit and miss all the way through, as were the production and... well, lots of things. What impressed me was the framework where (eventually) the threats were all parallels for character issues rather than just there, for their own sake. All of the thematic stuff was well-done, once they figured out what to do with it.
And yeah. Basically, Buffy is one of a sequence of shows that has helped to mature television as a narrative medium -- resulting in this weird thing we have going now where television is often actually damned good(!). On its own right the show is often kind of ham-fisted. It should be easy to see why it was influential, though.
There was a simplistic comment I saw somewhere that nevertheless has a certain truth to it. Twin Peaks showed that it was possible to do something of merit with television drama; The X-Files showed that a long-term narrative was possible; and Buffy shifted the focus from plot to character. After that it's pretty much downhill. |
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DonMarco
graphics fucker
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:47 am |
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| shrugtheironteacup wrote: |
| The too-overt "western" aesthetic bugged me. |
It's far more rustic out there on the bitter edge of civilization. Where men can be men and women can be strong and fiercely independant. The whole cowboy experience is pretty unique to early American life. Living out in the wild. Fighting, shooting, tripping over the law if you wanted to. Answering to no one. Wandering around looking for a place you belong to. Dude, I would kill to be armed, homeless and positioned firmly in the most inhospitable barren of North America. Think of the tan you would get!
Really, Star Wars is the worst thing to happen to movies. First it created the "block buster" and decades later the second trilogy virtually overshadows any credible space movie. I'm not talking about your Dooms and Pluto Nashs. But the more serious ones like Pitch Black and Serenity. Movies that try to get a story out to those that actually like scifi. Not parents that want something family-friendly and easily marketed toy lines. Lord forbid a movie with interesting characters in a riviting plot fight outrageous odds to do the right thing without a few CGI puppets popping out here and there.
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Kappuru
forum bishonen
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:51 am |
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| Eric-Jon Rössel Waugh wrote: |
| Ebrey wrote: |
| Eric-Jon - how far are you in Buffy? |
Twin Peaks showed that it was possible to do something of merit with television drama; The X-Files showed that a long-term narrative was possible; and Buffy shifted the focus from plot to character. After that it's pretty much downhill. |
I would think the x-file were more about character than plot.
No?
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 10:01 am |
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| DonMarco wrote: |
| It's far more rustic out there on the bitter edge of civilization. Where men can be men and women can be strong and fiercely independant. The whole cowboy experience is pretty unique to early American life. Living out in the wild. Fighting, shooting, tripping over the law if you wanted to. Answering to no one. Wandering around looking for a place you belong to. Dude, I would kill to be armed, homeless and positioned firmly in the most inhospitable barren of North America. Think of the tan you would get! |
Get to fuck.
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negativedge
banned
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 10:21 am |
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| Kappuru wrote: |
| Eric-Jon Rössel Waugh wrote: |
| Ebrey wrote: |
| Eric-Jon - how far are you in Buffy? |
Twin Peaks showed that it was possible to do something of merit with television drama; The X-Files showed that a long-term narrative was possible; and Buffy shifted the focus from plot to character. After that it's pretty much downhill. |
I would think the x-file were more about character than plot.
No? |
Nah, and if so, certainly not to the extent that Buffy is. |
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shrugtheironteacup
man of tomorrow
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: a meat
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:48 pm |
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I completely accept and embrace parallels between Space Frontier (!) and American Frontier but, look, that doesn't mean I should be looking at some ridiculous tacked-on old-timey brass scope on Zoe's winchester m1892 shotgun in Serenity.
It's distracting.
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