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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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 Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:15 am |
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| mauve wrote: |
I don't think Dark Souls would have done as well if it just came out of nowhere. Having Demon's Souls beforehand, and the legacy of King's Field before that, was a pretty big deal.
Which, to me, says that if you seriously want to build a franchise, stick with it for the long haul, marketing and all, instead of hoping to strike gold on your first outing. |
Yeah, I completely blanked on that. Thanks for reminding me!
2501, as far as I know they're already working on sequels as well as DLC for Bravely Default. Still, I'm curious as to who the point man is behind that game. Yoshida got a lot of media attention for his art in the game, but I'm not sure who's largely responsible for Bravely Default from a concept perspective. I say this as a result of knowing that Yoshida no longer formally works for Square. I suppose it's another thing that's interesting is how there lately seems to be an exodus of artists, programmers and designers whenever a long-term project is finished at Square. Not sure what's up with their management but I suspect it scares away a lot of talent.
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Ni Go Zero Ichi
Joined: 10 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:19 am |
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If interviews and PR are anything to go by, it seems like the single most influential person in the development of Bravely Default would be producer Tomoya Asano, who's a relative newbie to Square. This would make sense, since he was also a producer for FF: 4 Warriors of Light on the DS, to which BD was conceived as a spiritual successor, and that game was directed by true Square veteran Takashi Tokita (who was speculated to be involved with BD after it was first announced, but turned out not to be).
| Texican Rude wrote: |
| learn japanese today Japanese username man. |
My Moonspeak is weak, but my foreign-film-watching is strong :/
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Vikram Ray
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:37 am |
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| man there sure are a lot of sequences in ff8 where you are just standing around in a room |
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:02 am |
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| Vikram Ray wrote: |
| man there sure are a lot of sequences in ff8 where you are just standing around in a room |
This remains my biggest gripe about most modern games.
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Gironika
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Dragon Range
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:59 pm |
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| Talbain wrote: |
| Gironika, near as I can tell the reason a game doesn't sell well typically has more to do with marketing than the quality of the game (and the games that don't sell well in Square's repertoire are typically marketed poorly or not at all--they are not a central part of Square's marketing strategy). Dark Souls is a bit of a rare breed with regards to its cult success. Or maybe it's not? It's somewhat hard to tell with games that get ported to PC and find a lot of success there post-console (particularly JP games, as relatively few of them get ported compared to releases from other countries). |
But then there was the massive Code Age Series desaster that flopped on a mighty scale, whereas Bandai made .hack//stick with about the same effort. They had the manga to go with the game, and even a mobile phone game lined up. I was looking forward to this (and still have my PS2-copy, yeah!) and still think that we have missed out on a great game. I'm sure that lacking effort didn't make this go belly up so quickly … but then again, I'm the resident SQEX-week-nerd, so ymmv!
| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
| Sakaguchi left the company around 2002/2003 I believe, and I'm convinced you can trace a direct slide in their creativity after that point. Even the very last games put out during his tenure - Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy XI and FF Tactics Advance, I believe - still felt recognizably like Square titles, whatever their faults. |
You really should play Lost Odyssey - this game feels like a FF-title. I still don't know why, and cannot believe that it's just Sakaguchi and Uematsu doing their job, but playing it at some points feels like an FF, moreso than the "real" FFes after X.
I still need to play Last Story, but afterwards I really need to get that Sakaguchi-truth-uncovered™ SB podcast thing going that I have been envisioning for years by now.
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:54 pm |
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| Gironika wrote: |
| But then there was the massive Code Age Series desaster that flopped on a mighty scale, whereas Bandai made .hack//stick with about the same effort. They had the manga to go with the game, and even a mobile phone game lined up. I was looking forward to this (and still have my PS2-copy, yeah!) and still think that we have missed out on a great game. I'm sure that lacking effort didn't make this go belly up so quickly … but then again, I'm the resident SQEX-week-nerd, so ymmv! |
Well, Square Enix does have a history of disasters as well. I mean, FFXIV before they changed it was literally a game where you sat around for eight hours every four hours. I think a game can feed off its sequels, as the Final Fantasy series tried to do with all the offshoots that shared its name but had nothing to do with "Final Fantasy" proper. Lords of Shadow 2 seems to be doing that now. Selling well despite the media not liking the game at all. So maybe it's marketing plus feeding off a fanbase. Marvel and Lego games do this a lot too, though as a brand they also target kids, which might be a better choice than targeting adults (Earthbound as an example was intended to a game that everyone could enjoy, and for different reasons, though doing that also required a really great writer and designer at the helm).
I agree with acceptance and purchasing varying based on interest, but a lot of that interest depends on marketing reach. And maybe selling nostalgia? Unsure, but it certainly seems to be the case with Kickstarter. I think Bravely Default is a good example of selling nostalgia, especially because it misses what is actually nostalgic about those old games, yet is still a selling point for a lot of people.
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Last edited by Talbain on Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ni Go Zero Ichi
Joined: 10 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:08 pm |
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Bravely Default is interesting though because it doesn't purely lean on the crutch of nostalgia; in fact it only really goes skin-deep, and beneath the surface it's a fairly robust and unmistakably contemporary RPG, for better or worse. If anything the Final Fantasy Dimensions games for iOS more accurately capture the feeling of playing a genuine 16-bit Final Fantasy, while BD mainly just uses it as a wallpaper.
I've heard pretty much the same thing about Lost Odyssey, and it was always in my top 5 games to get if I ever got my hands on a 360. I still haven't, but I might in a year or two if they release some super-cheap gimped yet functional model a la the Wii Mini. Speaking of which, I was thinking with renewed interest the other day about how I still want to get The Last Story. Right now it seems to be going for $30 on Amazon, which for me is just too high for an impulse purchase ($20 or less is my comfort zone; $10 or less pretty much guarantees immediate purchase). Unfortunately I'm not sure whether waiting around will cause the game to drop in price by another $10 or so, or just make it scarcer and therefore more expensive. How limited are XSeed's print runs, usually?
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:57 pm |
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| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
| Bravely Default is interesting though because it doesn't purely lean on the crutch of nostalgia; in fact it only really goes skin-deep, and beneath the surface it's a fairly robust and unmistakably contemporary RPG, for better or worse. If anything the Final Fantasy Dimensions games for iOS more accurately capture the feeling of playing a genuine 16-bit Final Fantasy, while BD mainly just uses it as a wallpaper. |
Yeah, I agree with this, but that's precisely why it's strange. People are claiming the wallpaper as being nostalgic. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, misremembering the past isn't exactly new.
The Last Story is actually pretty good. It's shorter than most jRPGs but I actually consider that a far smarter approach than most games that just wear out their welcome. It's super corny though.
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Rud31
forum ruler of Iraq
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: SanAnTex
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Dark Age Iron Savior
king of finders
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: Spacecraft, Juanelia Country
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:41 am |
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| wind magic seems interesting |
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:43 am |
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| Texican Rude wrote: |
| The Last Story does absolutely nothing new. |
Not disagreeing, but this can be said of most videogames. It's my opinion that Bravely Default does nothing new, but people seem to like it just fine.
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Ben Reed
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: charge b, f + P
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:55 am |
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tbh after the past 2 weeks I have come to fundamentally disagree with the premise of this thread
i submit instead that the greatest NPC dialogue in a jRPG can in fact be found in the GB Pokemon games
so many beautiful silly little lines, I nearly ruptured something laughing at some of them
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Ni Go Zero Ichi
Joined: 10 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:01 pm |
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| Talbain wrote: |
| The Last Story is actually pretty good. It's shorter than most jRPGs but I actually consider that a far smarter approach than most games that just wear out their welcome. It's super corny though. |
During development/promotion Sakaguchi stated TLS's short length as a deliberate goal, citing something along the lines of most JRPGs having about 30 good hours in them anyway and wanting to deliver on quality over quantity. That's one of the things that made me interested in playing. I believe he also made some vague remarks suggesting that Yasumi Matsuno may have made some uncredited contributions to designing the game's combat and setting, though I could be misremembering that.
Also it's a Sakaguchi game, of course I expect it to be schmaltzy. Just as long as it's endearing Steven Spielberg schmaltz (which it usually is with Sakaguchi) and not creepy, nauseating James Cameron schmaltz.
Also also: I'm pretty sure combining real-time JRPG combat with a Gears-style cover system at least counts as doing something new, though whether it's good is a different question. Does the game use third-person Wiimote aiming, a la RE4?
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Ni Go Zero Ichi
Joined: 10 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:39 pm |
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| Ben Reed wrote: |
tbh after the past 2 weeks I have come to fundamentally disagree with the premise of this thread
i submit instead that the greatest NPC dialogue in a jRPG can in fact be found in the GB Pokemon games
so many beautiful silly little lines, I nearly ruptured something laughing at some of them |
Hey, I'm not dissing the Earthbound/early Pokemon/Mario RPG school of goofy/wacky NPC dialogue designed primarily to amuse. I just think games that attempt at least partly straight-faced NPC dialogue and do it well also deserve recognition.
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:50 pm |
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| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
| Ben Reed wrote: |
tbh after the past 2 weeks I have come to fundamentally disagree with the premise of this thread
i submit instead that the greatest NPC dialogue in a jRPG can in fact be found in the GB Pokemon games
so many beautiful silly little lines, I nearly ruptured something laughing at some of them |
Hey, I'm not dissing the Earthbound/early Pokemon/Mario RPG school of goofy/wacky NPC dialogue designed primarily to amuse. I just think games that attempt at least partly straight-faced NPC dialogue and do it well also deserve recognition. |
I would still argue that Earthbound has the best NPC Dialogue, and I'm actually sure its ambiguity as to whether or not it is serious is part of what makes it great.
"You can't envision the fall of capitalism? Incredible!"
Also Earthbound spawned Hyperbound, which is such a delightful game. More and more I'm thinking Earthbound might be my favorite game. I'm not sure anything can really displace Chrono Trigger in my young memory though.
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Rud31
forum ruler of Iraq
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: SanAnTex
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Vikram Ray
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:04 am |
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| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
| Ben Reed wrote: |
tbh after the past 2 weeks I have come to fundamentally disagree with the premise of this thread
i submit instead that the greatest NPC dialogue in a jRPG can in fact be found in the GB Pokemon games
so many beautiful silly little lines, I nearly ruptured something laughing at some of them |
Hey, I'm not dissing the Earthbound/early Pokemon/Mario RPG school of goofy/wacky NPC dialogue designed primarily to amuse. |
that ain't what Earthbound's about. |
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misadventurous
Joined: 29 Nov 2012
Location: witch city
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:10 am |
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| yeah earthbound is still the best for npc dialog imo |
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Ni Go Zero Ichi
Joined: 10 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:13 am |
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Well okay maybe Earthbound's dialogue counts as some sort of more sophisticated absurdism, but playing it when I was younger all I could see was goofy wackiness.
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Gironika
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Dragon Range
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:24 pm |
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| Texican Rude wrote: |
| It is so insane that 30 hours is short for any kind of entertainment experience. |
yes!
I'd rather have a brilliant 30 hours than 30+30 mediocre 'uns. And it's not like you cannot tell a story in < 60 hours.
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