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Tulpa

Joined: 31 Jul 2008
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Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:48 am |
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You know I used to reach for that M John Harrison quote all the time (Used to sounds like I did this in my youth, I'm mostly thinking of myself 1-2 years ago, though), but I've started to avoid doing so. It's just awkward to take a quote out of its original context and use it to decry something completely different.
The way in which M. John Harrison uses 'worldbuilding' is discrete and distinct from the general use of the term. It has more to do with a response/rebellion against the late capitalist infatuation with escapism in all its forms. Worldbuilding is impossible because there is only the world we live in, and to create another one is a fantasy scenario outside of a Borges short story, not something that can be achieved. To try to escape from this world by building a new world is not only impossible but an act of cowardice, a refusal to deal with the problems of modern life. (spoilers: this is what every single one of his books is about yes even the lit fic he wrote about mountain climbing)
Whatever I'm pretty sure I'm like 1 of 3 people here that have actually read his books so this is me saying "that quote has fuck all to do with chrono cross, which is a game I would describe as a triumph of writing over worldbuilding in the harrisonian sense"
radical dreamers sucks because it doesn't have any of what made chrono cross so good (the art, the bizarre characters, the atmosphere, ok I guess there's some overlap between the two games as far as music goes so there's one thing)
Edit: just to specify how I know for certain that Harrison is talking about something completely different from this thread, he has said in comments that he was not talking about people making video games or playing DnD, but about the escapist dimension that can be present in both those activities. _________________
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Tulpa

Joined: 31 Jul 2008
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Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:55 am |
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Regarding Final Fantasy X, this is probably a sentiment that's been expressed before, but I found myself having difficulty caring about all of the plot stuff about anime church, and the potential death and doom and gloom given that death means nothing to the people of the setting, that they can literally visit the afterlife whenever they want and see their loved ones, etc. It's a perfect example of the details of the story undermining the actual plot. _________________
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Tulpa

Joined: 31 Jul 2008
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Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:29 pm |
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| Levi wrote: |
| Tulpa wrote: |
You know I used to reach for that M John Harrison quote all the time (Used to sounds like I did this in my youth, I'm mostly thinking of myself 1-2 years ago, though), but I've started to avoid doing so. It's just awkward to take a quote out of its original context and use it to decry something completely different.
The way in which M. John Harrison uses 'worldbuilding' is discrete and distinct from the general use of the term. It has more to do with a response/rebellion against the late capitalist infatuation with escapism in all its forms. Worldbuilding is impossible because there is only the world we live in, and to create another one is a fantasy scenario outside of a Borges short story, not something that can be achieved. To try to escape from this world by building a new world is not only impossible but an act of cowardice, a refusal to deal with the problems of modern life. (spoilers: this is what every single one of his books is about yes even the lit fic he wrote about mountain climbing)
Whatever I'm pretty sure I'm like 1 of 3 people here that have actually read his books so this is me saying "that quote has fuck all to do with chrono cross, which is a game I would describe as a triumph of writing over worldbuilding in the harrisonian sense"
radical dreamers sucks because it doesn't have any of what made chrono cross so good (the art, the bizarre characters, the atmosphere, ok I guess there's some overlap between the two games as far as music goes so there's one thing)
Edit: just to specify how I know for certain that Harrison is talking about something completely different from this thread, he has said in comments that he was not talking about people making video games or playing DnD, but about the escapist dimension that can be present in both those activities. |
I understand that the point of this post is to suggest that I did not read a book that I read but I also think that it fails to point to a way that worldbuilding in a more common sense is meaningfully different in interpretation other than being less negative
http://ambientehotel.wordpress.com/2012/04/19/im-not-against-worldbuilding/
etc
I would also describe Chrono Cross and really, most of the late-90's Square as writing-over-worldbuilding, which is what I was mainly trying to convey in talking about Final Fantasy Tactics above. I pulled the Harrison quote out of the drawer because I wanted to imply that world building, as such, is not the actual goal in any of these things and I couldn't find the article I actually wanted to link, which does a decent walk-over on these topics. Oh well.
Radical Dreamers is cool and also a lot shorter |
Ok sorry for my snippy tone earlier. In general I agree with you about the subject of 'writing vs. worldbuilding' but I think it's a red herring to talk about Harrisonian worldbuilding when exactly the kind of worldbuilding being praised in this thread lines up exactly with what Harrison calls 'writing'. 'Deftness and economy of line' is pretty much what separates the expressionistic qualities of super metroid from the cludgy tone-deaf incoherence of Metroid: Other M.
| Quote: |
| As one critic has remarked, “The master knows how to convey a sense of place with the occasional sharp detail of sound or smell or color; the prentice hand betrays itself by either a complete absence of such detail or a laborious and inevitably tedious recitation of minutiae.” |
That just about sums it up.
I'm pretty sure no one here is defending Game of Thrones/Wheel of Time writing. _________________
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Tulpa

Joined: 31 Jul 2008
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Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:23 pm |
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Don't know who you've been reading, most good/respectable fantasy critics pay more attention to works of original fantasy than they do to works of derivative war of the roses with the names changed bullshit.
Strange Horizons review section bears this out: Afrofuturism anthology, Book of the Dead (which to quote: "Many of the best stories in the collection take as their impetus the complex, uncomfortable historical relationship between the west and Egypt."), Lavie Tidhar books, Sofia Samatar books, etc.
granted, the Hugos tend to favor the bland over the interesting, the retreads of western culture over the new, but the Hugo awards are widely considered to be a joke by everyone except the winners. _________________
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