[mauve]

http://jcwigriff.com/2014/03/20/dark-souls-2-takes-place-in-lordran-lore/

article for the pile
_________________
twit

[Felix]

would you look at us, we already came to 90% of the same conclusions

[Kinto]

Haven't finished the game but I'm pretty sure the demon boss in the iron keep is Solaire. The cat in Majula said it used to be a "vainglorious liar", which fits in with ENB's theory that Solaire is just a wackjob and the sunlight altar being at the foot of earthen peak.
_________________

[TXTSWORD]

I think I'm going to need more convincing, Kinto.

[Felix]

It's plausible but not much more than that

[Kinto]

Well sheeeit, I don't see how Gwyn fits the description of a "vainglorious liar". And it sure as hell ain't Patches.
_________________

[remote]

it is totally possible that solaire is the saint who threw himself into the fire and became ichorous earth. it would also be funny to me if solaire, the sole heir of the sun, likened to icarus, became ichorous earth. :B on top of that, description on the iron king hammer tells us that the corpse of the old iron king became the vessel that bred... ichorous earth. i assume this means that the corpse of the demon literally cooled and hardened and the hammer is a chunk broken off from it. i mean, why/how would gwyn have become the old iron king? and yeah, the sunlight altar is so close by. solaire being the cast out firstborn who self-immolated in the first flame does make the most sense to me, even with shalquoir still regarding him as a vainglorious liar simply because he had been stripped of his godhood and attempted to link the flame though he was not the chosen undead... and later, in his grossly incandescent vanity, he commanded these miners in harvest valley to find and excavate the sunlight altar. (i don't presume that the lordvessel has anything to do with it, but who knows.)

the transition to iron keep makes tons more sense to me this way. plus, considering the location of the sunlight altar, i have this vague notion that iron keep was built on top of sen's fortress after everything sank into lost izalith.

also, concerning the matter of whether the saint and/or the vainglorious liar was you, solaire, or anyone else, let's bear in mind that first of all, shalquoir may not be completely unbiased, but perhaps more importantly, that the legend of artorias the abysswalker was preserved even though some knew it was our chosen undead who laid artorias to rest and rescued dusk in his staid. (which to me lends credence to the thought that the hollowed body of artorias is the old witch's host, unifying them as the repentant lost sinner.)
_________________

letterboxd | last.fm | steam

[Kinto]

For the record I don't think there ever was a "Chosen" Undead. I thought it was pretty obvious the whole thing was a ruse to get Undead to conquer Lordran (as kind of a critique on how most videogames make egomaniacs of their players). Of the millions who try, one was bound to link the fire. Throwing in the concept of destiny ensured that whoever managed it wouldn't stop to consider that this whole "linking" thing might be a bad idea. Also I reckon Gwynevere is several cup sizes smaller than her illusion, for similar reasons.

[TXTSWORD]

Yeah I think "chosen" may be synonymous with "most successful".

[Felix]

I agree but I forget how all that shit with the darksign actually works

[TXTSWORD]

Aren't all undead marked with it?

[Felix]

I thought it was only certain ones, which conflicts with Kinto's reading (and "chosen" as "most successful"), but I can't remember. Certainly the "most succesful" reading is better dramatically.

also, a point of clarification -- the old iron king couldn't be Gwyn, because Gwyn is dead following the quest of the original chosen undead (as are Seath and Nito). just because there appears to be a bit of narratively and thematically important inheritance of old lord souls going on doesn't mean that any of the DkS1 bosses continued to exist in any sense after being killed.

[TXTSWORD]

[Kinto]

All cursed undead have the mark, Felix. I dunno if the hollowed bosses of DS1 count as "undead" too, though I'm guessing they don't have the darksign. But that doesn't matter because only the darksigned are expected to be tricked into going to Lordran and linking the flame anyhow.

By my reading the entire "chosen undead" legend is purely a machine for gathering up humanity and burning it. Even undead that ultimately fail will still at some point burn some humanity through kindling bonfires and restoring their humanity. The humanity offered to the bonfire is channeled to it's Fire Keeper, who end up with souls "gnawed" by the accumulated humanity. Firekeepers themselves end up getting sacrificed to the flame (hence the Firekeeper soul on the body at the altar in Undead Parish, and the phrase "and [they] die to protect it further" (and hence why it's a crime against the gods to kill a firekeeper)). IIRC when restoring humanity at the bonfire you don't actually burn it, you offer it to the flames. Which suggests that it's actually a transaction, and whoever is on the other side has the power to reset/momentarily dispel the curse. So I figure the curse itself (or at least the dark sign component) is actually a construction of the gods, not simply the natural order of things.

And hey, maybe that's a decent enough explanation for why human effigies work differently. Someone changed the rules for how hollowing is reset.

[DJ]

This is very fun to read.

Nobody's really hit significantly on the, uh, significance of Darklurker though, and the answers are right there on the internet and it's kinda killing me that nobody's put it together yet.
_________________

[TXTSWORD]

"The Dark Chasm of Old is the remnant of some ancient, dissipated being."

Dissipated being... Manus? As in - if the queen is Manus' "want", the Darklurker is some other part or parts of Manus?

[Kinto]

The Giant Lord looks a lot like Gwyn.

...is everyone in DS2 smaller than everyone in DS1?Because if so that would be hilarious.
_________________

[Felix]

[TXTSWORD]

^Totally forgot that dude exists haha.

[Dark Age Iron Savior]

DJ can you confirm if there is anything in DSII which doesn't actually mean anything?

[remote]

i mean the darklurker could be both a part of manus and the chosen undead (or a chosen undead) considering a unique affinity with Dark is something that set the chosen undead apart and made him/her able to enter the abyss that corrupted artorias...
_________________

letterboxd | last.fm | steam

[mauve]

i think it's a little more complicated than that but i'd have to actually fire the game up again to review item descriptions and stuff.
_________________
twit

[Tuxedo]

Darklurker has the same extra folded arms as Lautrec. (or at least it's very similar)
We never got what was the deal with that guy

[mauve]

well, if we're going to talk about darklurker, some notes: (random boss battle video from youtube)
- To gain access to him, you have to go through the Dark Chasm of Old, by lighting fires in them, and then fall down into the depths.
- You get into the Chasm from sacrificing effigies to the Pilgrims of Dark covenant dude, at one of the three locations: Black Marsh (close to Rotten), Shaded Ruins (on route to Brightstone), underneath Drangleic (where did this castle even come from and why is there a teleporter THERE? I doubt these positions are randomly chosen.)
- Once down there, you fight him. He floats with unmoving legs, has four arms(two of which are always folded?), and has bright white wings.
- His attacks are Hexes and Pyromancy only. One of them is two sword slices from his left arm.
- After getting near half his health, he'll split into two.
- The only way out after winning is to fall into another chasm.
- Once defeated, Grandahl gives you: the hex Climax, Xanthous(!!) Set, and Dragon Chime(arguably the best miracles chime). All of the spells Grandahl gives you directly consume souls to use.
- Darklurker's soul can only be traded for the hex Lifedrain Patch, which seems of questionable usefulness and has no ds1 analogue.

The usage of pyromancy seems most relevant to me, the double sword slices reminds me of four kings' sword.

so who is Grandahl and why does he seem to be three places at once, and what is up with the Darklurker himself anyway.
_________________
twit

[Felix]

[mauve]

what's with the gates though? they seem pretty arbitrary. i don't remember any structures exactly like those in ds1, though circular structures kinda says new londo to me in general.
_________________
twit

[Felix]

Some dude, apropos of nothing, has painstakingly built PORTALS TO THE OLD PROTAGONIST

I got nothin

[mauve]

i'm still really not convinced of them being the same!
_________________
twit

[Schwere Viper]

Maybe the Giants came to Drangleic from the land beyond the destroyed Archstone in Demon's Souls.

Oh, Rudie beat me to it.

still, :3c
_________________
HeavyViper@Twitter ~~~ HeavyViper@Soundcloud
Blog: Machines That Sing

[Rud31]

Yeah. I mean that doesn't really mean anything (almost any analysis of the "story" of Dark Souls II is off such little evidence) but I do really like that thought.
_________________
My Hawt Blog Vita Games

THERE ARE DEFINITELY WORSE VIDEO GAME PODCASTS

[8128]

what's up with that other npc near the beginning of huntsman's copse that seems like a younger granddad
_________________

[Kinto]

Only just occured to me that the 4 lord souls being passed on doesn't require any reincarnation/rebirth of the old endgame bosses as the souls themselves were separate from Nito/Gwyn/Izalith/Pygmy in the first place. Though perhaps these souls have the ability to transfer memories to whoever finds them.

Something really seems off with The Rotten getting Nito's soul. It seems like Nito has a much bigger role than that, judging by the milfinito's dialogue.
_________________

[TXTSWORD]

[Kinto]

What're people's thoughts on the relationship between the respective giants of DS1 and 2? I'm starting to think they have nothing to do with eachother.
_________________

[Felix]

[TXTSWORD]

I need to make a hex guy at some point, but I think my next big idea is to make a dual wielding offensive shield man.

[mauve]

oh. i didn't realize the opening gate was the same type. that's interesting.

so people fall into the dark and get washed up there, or something? bizarre.

or maybe it's just very special undead that travel through there...

speaking of which, nobody seems to remember how they got to drangleic.
_________________
twit

[remote]

re: the lord souls and their new "incarnations" i think some of them (the rotten) are merely simulacra, archetypal vessels for the lord souls, while others (old iron king) might actually be new forms of old entities. i mean as i've said it makes a lot of sense to me that solaire would become the old iron king and in his corrupted vanity claim gwyn's lord soul.
_________________

letterboxd | last.fm | steam

[TXTSWORD]

Did the 4 kings not have a lord soul??? If so, where are they represented?

[DJ]

You guys are looking in the wrong directions for answers about Darklurker.

Take it outside just what they tell you in DS2.
_________________

[Kinto]