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Gender Brief
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Kilroy
was here


Joined: 28 Jun 2008
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:33 am    Post subject: Gender Brief    Reply with quote

I was going to say that "Newhalf" seems to be referring to cartesian dualism, where "half" a person is their soul, which apparently has an essential gender, and the other half refers to the body. So I thought the implication was that the soul remains the same and the body changes. The screencap of your correspondence with the translator removes the possibility of that interpretation though. He seems naive but reasonable. Interesting that the term would be targeted towards pre-op transsexuals specifically (but then I guess you could probably say "shemale" is "mostly targeted to pre/non-ops" too). Good writeup. I wish I could be disappointed in Kojima but the truth is that I no longer believe a person can be both prone to exercising sound critical thought and successful. I wonder what horrific abortions of intellect Phantom Pain will hold.

Quote:
in actuality, Otacon is a fictional scientist written by a bigot working in the videogame industry.


Thank you for summarizing one of the major problems with author stand-ins.
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guest253



Joined: 05 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:06 am        Reply with quote

Reed wrote:
how much of this do you think is his cultural context (ie Japan) and how much of it can be separated into something about his upbringing or him just being a bad person

let me chime in to say that plenty of japanese manage to be civilized about these things.
guy's an asshole. kinda shocked at how much of an asshole. didn't know it was this bad.

good write-up rei.
(maybe it's inappropriate, but sometimes i feel a bit concerned about you inflicting these games upon yourself...)
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idle
QUAD DAMAGE!!!


Joined: 10 Jun 2007

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:20 am    Post subject: Re: Gender Brief    Reply with quote

Rei wrote:
Let’s unpack the problems in the above exchange. First, both Otacon and Snake use “it” as a gender-neutral term, which is offensive to say when referring to anyone. It implies they’re a strange, subhuman creature who is below a gender identity like the rest of us.

Granted, Yoshi’s a cartoon dinosaur, not a real person, but that’s beside the point.


That's not really beside the point at all, though. Yoshi isn't a human, and there's nothing inherently problematic in referring to non-humans as "it". Gender is a human concept; there's no such thing as a trans animal.

Fellow fictional dinosaur Birdo would be the lone exception, but that has nothing to do with Kojima and his various works.

Quote:
Snake is obviously ignorant to gender beyond a rigid binary; he says anything that lays an egg (and throws it?) must be a woman.


Sex and gender aren't the same thing. Biological females of most (all?) species on this planet tend to produce eggs, regardless of what gender they identify as.

I'm not sure why you felt you had to reach so hard as to include the Yoshi bit when your essay has plenty of damning evidence (the Policenauts stuff alone is pretty breathtaking) against Kojima already. This sort of grasping at straws tends to damage the author's credibility more than help their argument.

Did Kojima write any of the codec dialogue in SSBB? As creepy as some of the Smash codecs are, bringing them up seems sort of tangential in this context if that isn't the case.
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guest253



Joined: 05 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:28 am        Reply with quote

idle wrote:
there's no such thing as a trans animal.

what makes you think there isn't?

idle wrote:
Quote:
Snake is obviously ignorant to gender beyond a rigid binary; he says anything that lays an egg (and throws it?) must be a woman.


Sex and gender aren't the same thing. Biological females of most (all?) species on this planet tend to produce eggs, regardless of what gender they identify as.

which makes the link between "eggs" and "woman" rather tenuous, doesn't it?
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idle
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Joined: 10 Jun 2007

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:24 am    Post subject: Re: Gender Brief    Reply with quote

glitch wrote:
idle wrote:
Sex and gender aren't the same thing. Biological females of most (all?) species on this planet tend to produce eggs, regardless of what gender they identify as.

which makes the link between "eggs" and "woman" rather tenuous, doesn't it?


Not really? As long as you're making the distinction between sex and gender, I mean.

Rei wrote:
Like glitch, I don't think you can say if a non-human can be trans or not with certainty. I mean, I know of some creatures that change sexes, so.


True, some animals do change sexes. However, I doubt any are intellectually developed enough to come up with or enforce abstract concepts such as gender roles, morality, etc.

Quote:
Plus, I wanted to give a brief history of trans characters since this is called Gender Brief. Yoshi was a lead-in to Birdo to sorta unify some themes here.


That's what had me confused. The title led me to believe this piece would deal with gender roles in video games in general, but like 90% of it dealt with Kojima games and then it suddenly switches to Smash Bros at the end. It feels a little awkward to read.
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idle
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:33 am        Reply with quote

That's kind of rude! If also kind of accurate.

In all honesty I had a few more things I disagreed with in your piece, but I held myself back because the Yoshi bit was really the only glaring one. Baby steps, Rei. Baby steps.
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guest253



Joined: 05 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:59 am        Reply with quote

idle wrote:
glitch wrote:
idle wrote:
Sex and gender aren't the same thing. Biological females of most (all?) species on this planet tend to produce eggs, regardless of what gender they identify as.

which makes the link between "eggs" and "woman" rather tenuous, doesn't it?


Not really? As long as you're making the distinction between sex and gender, I mean.

i'm making that distinction and consequently it seems to me that "eggs" and "woman" do not imply one another.

idle wrote:
Rei wrote:
Like glitch, I don't think you can say if a non-human can be trans or not with certainty. I mean, I know of some creatures that change sexes, so.


True, some animals do change sexes. However, I doubt any are intellectually developed enough to come up with or enforce abstract concepts such as gender roles, morality, etc.

what makes you think abstract concepts have anything to do with being trans?
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Talbain



Joined: 14 Jan 2007

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:42 am        Reply with quote

glitch wrote:
good write-up rei.
(maybe it's inappropriate, but sometimes i feel a bit concerned about you inflicting these games upon yourself...)

Agreed.


I enjoyed reading this. I agree with idle that the comments on Yoshi did seem tangential, but it was lighter and relaxing as the article wound down.
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allensmithee
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Joined: 21 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:51 am        Reply with quote

the only thing eggs gotta do with is gametes and reproduction or whatever. there is nothing inherently womanly about them.

i havent played Policenauts so i was surprised i could be more deeply disappointed with Kojimas insensitive ignorant bullshit but nope, he went for lower lows.

i liked the yoshi part fwiw
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Kilroy
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Joined: 28 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Gender Brief    Reply with quote

idle wrote:
True, some animals do change sexes. However, I doubt any are intellectually developed enough to come up with or enforce abstract concepts such as gender roles, morality, etc.


What does this have to do with transsexualism? Can an entity only be homosexual if they have the concept "homosexual"? You might as well say a person can't be human if they can't conceptualize the philosophical construct of humanity, as say transsexualism is rooted in abstract thought. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of what you're even talking about.
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parker
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:31 pm        Reply with quote

I didn't even know Yoshi talked I just thought he was Mario's dinosaur horse
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allensmithee
polyglamorous


Joined: 21 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:37 pm        Reply with quote

One thing I think is fucked is that wouldnt gene conditioning basically be like HRT? like thats transitioning. how is that not? what the hell.
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Glam Grimfire



Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Location: the funky western civilization

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:40 pm        Reply with quote

this was a general brief of a gender brief!
it was pretty smartly written
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1CC



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:14 pm        Reply with quote

This was an interesting read, thanks!

I'm curious how much the translators added to injury in SSBB and Snatcher.
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Lick Meth



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: A constant state of flux

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:23 pm        Reply with quote

idle wrote:
Rei wrote:
Let’s unpack the problems in the above exchange. First, both Otacon and Snake use “it” as a gender-neutral term, which is offensive to say when referring to anyone. It implies they’re a strange, subhuman creature who is below a gender identity like the rest of us.

Granted, Yoshi’s a cartoon dinosaur, not a real person, but that’s beside the point.


That's not really beside the point at all, though. Yoshi isn't a human, and there's nothing inherently problematic in referring to non-humans as "it". Gender is a human concept; there's no such thing as a trans animal.

This is dumb because Yoshi and Birdo are effectively anthropomorphised by creation
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Levi



Joined: 05 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:38 pm        Reply with quote

rei are you still publishing this with your name in the url that remains a very very bad idea
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idle
QUAD DAMAGE!!!


Joined: 10 Jun 2007

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:43 pm        Reply with quote

glitch wrote:
idle wrote:
True, some animals do change sexes. However, I doubt any are intellectually developed enough to come up with or enforce abstract concepts such as gender roles, morality, etc.

what makes you think abstract concepts have anything to do with being trans?


What makes you think, say, a fox would be strolling around all day thinking "I wish I'd been born a girl fox"? The vast majority of creatures on this planet operate largely on instinct; it just doesn't seem to me like there's any room for a condition like gender dysphoria to develop there. Even if there were, how would it manifest?

Rei wrote:
Anyway, what were your other complaints? I suppose I'll get my best critique from you.


I can't really think of much right now besides the section about Gillian encountering a transvestite in Snatcher. You say it ties into the game's theme of women being deceptive, but it seems more likely to me that it's just a typical homosexual panic joke: "dude, that chick you were hitting on was totally a man!" and so forth. Your reading of the scene isn't entirely baseless though, and even if I'm right it's still problematic, so it's not really a big deal anyway.

I think the reason why I and the larger internet reacted so strongly to the Yoshi bit is that it's impossible to tell you were being humorous or "having fun" with it: it comes across every bit as dead serious and accusatory as the rest of the article. While I can understand how talking about a cartoon dinosaur being misgendered might be easier for you than talking about human characters being misgendered, to most non-trans people it would seem a little silly, to put it lightly. It's a cartoon dinosaur. If you were able to lighten up your tone for that section of the essay to make it more obvious it's the "stretching your legs" section, as you put it, I think that part would probably be a little more well recieved.
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Levi



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:54 pm        Reply with quote

the quad damage you took must have been a headshot
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Kilroy
was here


Joined: 28 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:06 pm        Reply with quote

idle wrote:
What makes you think, say, a fox would be strolling around all day thinking "I wish I'd been born a girl fox"?


Oh man, this totally defines how my days go.

idle wrote:
The vast majority of creatures on this planet operate largely on instinct; it just doesn't seem to me like there's any room for a condition like gender dysphoria to develop there. Even if there were, how would it manifest?


It would be indistinguishable from a generalized discomfort and from anxiety produced by the possession of instincts which couldn't be actualized given the animal's anatomy. It is possible some compromise would be attempted which would be largely indistinguishable from animal homosexuality to an outside observer.

I literally grab my hair in my hands when I see people saying things like "Here we see a male animal acting out child raising behaviors in a species where only the females exhibit this behavior. Implication: IT'S GAY" It seriously makes me doubt the mental acuity of the person involved.
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glossolalia



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:08 pm        Reply with quote

i had to stop at "biovestites"

i think hideo kojima and my dad would get along pretty well

(edit: i think this is clearly well-written/researched, just a personal comfort thing)
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evnvnv
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Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:22 pm        Reply with quote

I keep starting and then erasing a response to these threads! Basically I think it is great and I am glad you are doing it, Rei, you are an excellent writer and you're able to pick apart these things really well.

I think I enjoyed this one the most because it is not entirely focused on Kojima. It's true that he is probably an egregious example of this, but I think the more you broaden your attention to other things the better and more engaging this project will become. Snatcher has always been interesting to me because it seems like such a product of a really weird zeitgeist. That is, the convergence of 'cyberpunk' with the ultra edgy and graphic anime of the 80's-90's. I also think it's an interesting place from which to look at the way anime and Japanese pop culture in general was received and marketed in the west. There is this weird boundary when things that are edgy and risque in a really brilliant way cross the line into just being kind of repugnant and mean spirited. It would be interesting to see Kojima's work considered against the backdrop of all the other absurdly violent, dismal works filled with mean-spirited characters that sort of populate this period of media, and for the most part were the things that Americans (and probably others) found most exciting about anime and manga at the time. I think you've definitely shown with Kojima this goes beyond just participation in a trend, but I still feel like I want to see it contextualized a little more.

Anyway I feel like the more I write the less sense I'll make, so tl;dr is : Great job, keep writing these forever.

The part on the term 'new half' was particularly interesting to me as I've often wondered how various discussions about gender and sexual identity take place in different languages and cultures. This is kind of a tangent, but it partially reminded me of other recent events. In some ways it seems like the idea of a 'third gender' would be antithetical to idea of a complete transition. I mean it seems like in many cases being considered to be 'neither man nor woman' could be considered insulting or offensive, but in other cases it seems like that's exactly what people are seeking recognition as. I guess the short version of the story is there are all kinds of ways for this to play out beyond bluntly and stupidly equating external sex organs with gender identity, and that anything beyond that depends more on how individuals identify and live their lives rather than how they are defined by outsiders. But at the same time I can see it leading to some interesting debates. I dunno.
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Glam Grimfire



Joined: 16 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:42 pm        Reply with quote

hello again, rei!

i dunno if my opinion is spectacularly valued around here when it comes to Matters Wot Wrote

BUT


i think the problem with heading from kojima trivia to smash bros trivia is that it doesn't necessarily flow very well together; the change is pretty abrupt from one topic to another. maybe you could keep this part if you managed to bridge the two different subjects in relation to your overarching one, it'd be fine I think
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tiburon



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:35 pm        Reply with quote

Brooks wrote:
does that matter?

uh... yes?
knowing why something occurs is a direct prerequisite of addressing its root causes.

in terms of making moral judgments about him, probably not. same effect either way.
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guest253



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:24 am        Reply with quote

idle wrote:
The vast majority of creatures on this planet operate largely on instinct; it just doesn't seem to me like there's any room for a condition like gender dysphoria to develop there.

ok, i guess you just don't know much about these things. to the best of our current neurological understanding, transsexualism seems to be caused by (or at least goes hand in hand with) a mismatch between the sex of the body and the sex of primitive brain areas involved in sex-specific instincts. experiments with mice have shown that disturbing the pre-natal hormone balance at the right time in the right way can produce mice with the body of one sex and the brain wiring of the other sex. turns out that a mouse with a female body and a male brain behaviourally expresses male mating instincts. who woulda thunk. what is that mouse, if not trans? whether it has the conceptual repertoire to understand its own predicament as such is immaterial.

i guess you might object that such artificial cases don't count, but given that this occurs spontaneously in a small proportion of humans (a pretty run-of-the-will mammal in terms of neurological sexual dimorphism), it seems plenty plausible that it occurs spontaneously in other species too. hard to confirm without finding a suspect specimen and cutting its brain open (which is rude), so i'm not gonna claim to be sure, but your assertion that there is no such thing as a trans animal seems absurd.
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Talbain



Joined: 14 Jan 2007

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:41 am        Reply with quote

Rei, due to Photobucket being a jerk, I would recommend using imgur to prevent the images from messing up. You can also use the ettugamer wordpress image uploader too, though re-posting those on other sites will probably cause them to load more slowly.
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The King



Joined: 14 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:27 am        Reply with quote

glitch wrote:
turns out that a mouse with a female body and a male brain behaviourally expresses male mating instincts. who woulda thunk. what is that mouse, if not trans? whether it has the conceptual repertoire to understand its own predicament as such is immaterial.


It's a mouse with female bits and male mating instincts..
If it doesn't have the conceptual repertoire needed to establish it's own identity, then the identity is merely an external label.

We perhaps reach a moot point:

On one hand:
It's not a transmouse. It doesn't have it's own gender identity.
There are no gay mice, there are no straight mice, there are no bi, trans or asexual mice. They don't have gender identities they have behaviors.

On the other:
We have mice which express homosexual behavior and mice that express heterosexual behavior, so we could choose to label them as homosexual, and heterosexual mice, and further we have mice with mismatched brain and body which we could label as transsexual mice.

Either way it's a mouse.
The mouse doesn't have a gender identity,
if Idle calls the mouse 'it'
and glitch calls the mouse 'she'
the mouse doesn't care.

Why should we?
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idle
QUAD DAMAGE!!!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:01 am        Reply with quote

glitch wrote:
idle wrote:
The vast majority of creatures on this planet operate largely on instinct; it just doesn't seem to me like there's any room for a condition like gender dysphoria to develop there.

ok, i guess you just don't know much about these things. to the best of our current neurological understanding, transsexualism seems to be caused by (or at least goes hand in hand with) a mismatch between the sex of the body and the sex of primitive brain areas involved in sex-specific instincts. experiments with mice have shown that disturbing the pre-natal hormone balance at the right time in the right way can produce mice with the body of one sex and the brain wiring of the other sex. turns out that a mouse with a female body and a male brain behaviourally expresses male mating instincts. who woulda thunk. what is that mouse, if not trans? whether it has the conceptual repertoire to understand its own predicament as such is immaterial.


That is interesting. I wouldn't agree with the last sentence though.

King pretty much nailed why.
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guest253



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:35 am        Reply with quote

yeah, fair enough. guess it hinges on the finer points of whether we count a mismatch between body and neurocognition as transsexualism, or define transsexualism strictly as mismatch between body and gender identity, and in that case on how exactly we define gender identity and to what extent animals can have one (which seems pretty hard to assess...). calling an animal trans presupposes the neurocognitive view, but that's not the only possible view. acknowledged.
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Kilroy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:28 pm        Reply with quote

Gender identity is irrelevant to transsexualism. Here's why: to say otherwise would be to say that it's impossible to be a repressed transsexual. The act of identifying as your birth gender would somehow erase the underlying fact of the mismatch. But in this case, we could say in a sense that reparative therapy is successful in its stated goals. The fact that it causes pain would be irrelevant to the fact that it could prevent a gender identity from forming. This seems like a colossal sophistry, namely of the red herring variety.
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meauxdal
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:05 pm        Reply with quote

Yeah, Kilroy's totally right. I don't know why anyone would take the tack that trans status is contingent on conscious acknowledgement of a gender/sex mismatch.
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Levi



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:51 am        Reply with quote

a couple reasons for such a posture do come to mind

none of them are nice
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guest253



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:18 am        Reply with quote

composerzane wrote:
Yeah, Kilroy's totally right. I don't know why anyone would take the tack that trans status is contingent on conscious acknowledgement of a gender/sex mismatch.

agreed on the sentiment, but... if you open some textbook you'll probably find a definition in terms of body/identity mismatch, and from there, if you take a view of identity that involves an understanding of oneself as being such or so, then you get to where idle seems to be at.

i think the neuroscientific explanation makes the older fuzzier identity-based explanation obsolete. body/identity is just a (possibly human-specific) symptom, while body/brain mismatch is the real issue. should we then redefine transsexualism as body/brain mismatch, or find some new term for body/brain mismatch that transsexualism is a symptom of? i'm inclined to the former but, hey, not my call to make. words.
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Kilroy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:43 pm        Reply with quote

You could always just call the brain/body mismatch "transsexualism" and the body/identity match "transgenderism". It's reasonably compatible with what the words actually mean presently (as long as you disregard the associated baggages of politically motivated opinion, psuedoscience, and older transsexual's Stockholm syndrome with psuedoscience). A brain/body mismatch isn't entirely a matter of physical sex but that's mostly an artifact of physical sex being narrowly defined by only the sexually dimorphic properties involving chromosomes or gametes. If property x is also strongly correlated with sexual dimorphism you would think it could also be considered a sexual property. I don't get why people worship arbitrary definitions as sacrosanct anyway, it's like they think the use of words falls in the same category as fundamental physical laws. Probably just some weird authoritarianism.
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Brooks



Joined: 08 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:13 pm        Reply with quote

put it in a box, easier to file away
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wasted potential



Joined: 19 Jul 2007

PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:37 pm        Reply with quote

what do people here think of this, a bathroom for TG people:
http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local-govt-politics/transgender-bathroom-policy-goes-effect-jan-1/ncWTw/
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Kilroy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:45 pm        Reply with quote

Having unisex bathrooms makes sense. They fulfill a broad range of goals, and do help trans people stay safe. Having bathrooms specifically designated for transsexual people is sort of like segregation. Since transsexual people are still allowed by law to use whatever bathroom, it's sort of like a fondly expressed wish that trans people self-segregate. However, given the nature of institutional abuse, it could easily become more than that in practice, even with protection laws in place. You're also putting up a sign which not only outs trans people, but tells people with malicious intent where to find them. Could be well-intentioned, could be ill-intentioned, is dumb either way.
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glossolalia



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:35 pm        Reply with quote

my first thought was of getting pointed and laughed at or worse coming out of one of those. seems predicated on the idea that trangenderism is necessarily a third gender and/or made to placate moral panic transphobes.

tw sexual assault as a child and teenager i was targeted for roughing up and even punitive rape in male-only institutional spaces just for having feminine mannerisms or wearing foundation. having access to legitimately unisex / gender-appropriate spaces is a matter of safety for trans people, not just respect.
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Kilroy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:54 pm        Reply with quote

Every bathroom is a safe bathroom when you carry three guns and two knives.
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Brooks



Joined: 08 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:03 am        Reply with quote

i just scrolled down to the caption

Code:
Otacon weeps (again) for the humiliation that males go through in this franchise…


so i assume the whole piece is a gag
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The King



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:02 am        Reply with quote

Agreeing with Kilroy on the bathroom issue.
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tacotaskforce



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:17 am        Reply with quote

America will never have legitimate unisex bathrooms so long as fox news exists.
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