[TMFK]

Have we done this topic, already?

Let's talk about the best video game sequels – not necessarily the best game-that-happens-to-be-a-sequel, but the game that best refines and isolates the successes of its antecedent while also expanding into new territories.*

My personal go-to is Pokemon Silver/Gold. To me it was the ultimate second draft sequel, maintaining everything that worked about the first game and fixing all the things that didn't. Now you have hot button to assign your fishing rod or bike to. Oh hey! They added a calendar and day/night cycles, so you can have special events! Wow! They added a bunch of new, cool Pokemon! Probably some other stuff that I forget!

I'm predicting that some of you guys will want to write about SMB3, Sonic 2, and Megaman 2 as well, but I leave that to you.

So what's your favorite sequel and why?

[TMFK]

*Of course, this is a particular interpretation of what makes a "good" sequel. In theory, I'm really fond of that period when Nintendo was still figuring out how to make sequels to their successful franchises. I'm not a big Zelda II fan (so hard!), but I think it's really cool that Miyamoto threw "Action" and "RPG" into a centrifuge and made a game that has very pure representations of both genres. Not to mention that it's a very mysterious, punishing interpretation of adventure, and those are two rare and wonderful qualities for a game to have.

Similarly, I am a huge fan of SMB2j, and I also think that's a really cool interpretation of what a video game sequel might be. "Well, this is for people who beat the first game, right? So we'll design the sequel as challenge levels for people who have mastered the first game (because if you haven't mastered the first game, why are you seeking out a sequel). Hey! And what if instead of just being harder in terms of the level design grammar we created in the first game we add a sort of lateral thinking element by purposely making the levels counter-intuitive and punishing you for doing what the first game taught you?"

Interestingly, in both cases, the third game in the series was the "true" sequel (as far as fans are concerned)--more along the lines of what I described in my OP. But--man--on a theoretical level, I love the concept that a sequel should be a reaction to the first game, rather than a revision/expansion of the proof-of-concept of the first game. That attitude also isolates how interesting the question of a video game sequel is.

Unlike primarily narrative media, in which it's assumed that the author will simply continue their narrative with "what's next" scenarios, a video game sequel tends to be an expansion (or reaction) to the previous game's formal elements. Of course, now "what's next" narratives are often the thing as well, but players still expect a formal link.

In that sense, video game sequels feel less like movie sequels than, like, a sequel song or the concept of a sculpture being a sequel to another sculpture.

Hm. It might also be interesting to talk about the Pre-NES/Master System sequels. Ms. Pacman is probably the ultimate, right? I think of that attitude to sequels as being, "Uh. I guess I'll add more levels and tweak some of the movement, and add some features...." But I'd be interested in some novel examples.

[TMFK]

Is EDF2017 the best EDF game? It's the only one I played, but it really feels like a refinement of previous systems. Plus, I can't imagine the game working nearly as well without the extra processing power of the 360. I guess the previous versions were less hoardy?

[boojiboy7]

I'm enjoying 2025 over 2017, to be honest.

[Ronk]

[CubaLibre]

I'm not going to postulate "best," but Half-Life 2 is I think a really clear example of this. The first game started to introduce scripted sequences, friendly AI, setpieces within mostly linear, propulsive level design, and something resembling a "real story" in the context of an FPS. But it still bore the stamp of its Quakey origins in its wacky weapons and narrative focus on the "solo mission." HL2 is a refinement of all the elements that HL1 introduced and made it famous, and a culling of the remaining detritus that linked it to its Quake forbear - such a refinement in fact that HL2 essentially founded an entirely new subgenre of FPS.
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[Ni Go Zero Ichi]

SMB2 US> JP

The "reimagine the whole game experience outside of the most basic defining mechanical and aesthetic elements" style of sequel-making is vastly preferable in my book to the "challenge level add-on pack" model. Of course, both of these are distinct from the far more standard "refine and expand" model that tends to be the dominant paradigm for video game sequels.

Come to think of it, I think all of my favorite sequels - in media generally, not just in video games - are "responses" to the preceding work, though not quite in the way TMKF describes. Metal Gear Solid 2, The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, and Chrono Cross - three of my favorites - are each a formal and thematic response to a monumental predecessor, ruminating on that game's implications while expanding its world. They all connect to their predecessors in unique and meaningful ways that would not be possible were they designed as stand-alone products, while still retaining their autonomy as independent works; and this, to my mind, is what defines them as good sequels, and not just good games that happen to be sequels.
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Just another savage day on Planet Earth.

[diplo]

SMB2 US is a sprite-swap of a preexisting game. I think it's a re-imagining only if you pretend the other thing never happened.
I'm with you on preference for what a sequel does, though.

[TMFK]

Apparently, it's also tweaked to have more polish or something, but yeah.

It would be really cool if it were actually designed as a Mario game, though, because, yeah: that would be an interesting response sequel. Of course, it kind of has a stronger Mario lineage than SMB2j, since Doki Doki Panic was an R&D1 game, and SMB2j was designed by the janitor on an lunch break or something. Does anybody know who actually made it? Huh. Some Mario wiki says Miyamoto was one of the directors, but that's contrary to what I've always heard....

[TMFK]

[Gideon Zhi]

[BenoitRen]

Mega Man X, of course.
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Get Xenoblade Chronicles!

[1CC]

[TMFK]

Oh yeah, I played Insect Armageddon, actually. But. Yeah. I think we all knew what we were getting there. I've always suspected that I wouldn't like the classes in the older games, since a large part of my enjoyment of 2017 is how streamlined and jump-in-and-play it feels. You guys are making me pretty excited for 2025, though. I was planning to wait for it to be $20, but maybe I'll just bite the bullet at $40.

[1CC]

Have you not played Co-Op? Every player being its own class adds a lot.

[Glam Grimfire]

is it considered passe to mention metal gear solid 2
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##SKELETON PARTY (new article as of 04/26/14)Grim

[TMFK]

Haha, I only play co-op! I didn't play Armageddon enough to get a good feel for the classes, and I'm used to 2017, so it felt like an overcomplication (even though I knew the previous games had classes). One of the things that keeps me from playing games these days is the feeling that I have to invest myself in them. The games I find myself playing are games that feel like I can jump in and out without dedicating much thought. It's sort of a mental real estate thing, measured in time. 2017 felt perfect to me, because it seemingly requires no thought/time investment, but then of course you can get really into it, create your own strategies, and play for an entire day. I call games that you can happily play for 10 minutes or 8 hours "accordion games," and 2017 was a really good one. 2025 might work like that once I'm used to the classes, but I imagine it's not quite the same as the simplicity of 2017. I won't know until I check it out!

[TMFK]

[Ronk]

[Glam Grimfire]

To be honest, I don't think Super Castlevania IV is 'the best sequel' because of the weird direction it went in its design. Rondo of Blood is way better for doing Castlevania with more....of..it...

That was stated kind of in an inarticulate way, but I hope you guys get what I mean.

Super Metroid though? yeah. Yeah.
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##SKELETON PARTY (new article as of 04/26/14)Grim

[Ronk]

[Toptube]

but Snake Eater is the best MGS, so.....

[Take It Sleazy]

If were talking about the job of a sequel as something like refining, expanding, and streamlining the mechanics and also taking an aesthetic leap forward than my head agrees with Pokemon 2 and Megaman X and Mario 3 and GTA III as good "official" choices to put on a listicle of the Top 10 Best Sequels

But my heart of hearts says San Francisco Rush 2049 is the best

[Take It Sleazy]

What about sequels like Super Mario 64 or Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2 or NFL2K4 that are good enough to make entire genres of games feel like they are trying to play catch up for a year or five. That's a hell of a trick.

[Brooks]

JSRF gave me everything I liked from JSR and much less of what I didn't

They upped they scale and lost the timer, and that has consequences but I think they stepped up to it

Probably still my favourite sandbox game (that isn't really a sandbox game)

[TMFK]

[TMFK]

Haha, I just realized that for me Sonic is all about poking around and getting every little secret and Mario is about running as fast as you can. I guess I still get all the secrets, but a lot of the secrets are about skipping half the levels.

So in my mind, the game design of Mario is about speed and the game design of Sonic is about pokey exploration.

[Brooks]

Or at least in Sonic I'm made to feel more that I'm missing out on... a thing by charging ahead

[another god]

Street Fighter 2
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interdimensional

[Ni Go Zero Ichi]

[another god]

If you're going to mention Metroid sequels, the obvious answer is Metroid 2
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interdimensional

[Dark Age Iron Savior]

the original Shiren was marketed as Mystery Dungeon 2 (after the Torneko game) - if we count that, it stands out as an exceptional sequel, greatly improving on nearly every single area while also dropping the biggest selling point of the original (the Dragon Quest license).

To a lesser degree, Samurai Kid takes the rough, experimental design of the GBC Hammerin' Harry game and refines it into something much tighter and more fiendish, without really altering the core concepts (except level flow) that much.

[Tulpa]

[Winona Ghost Ryder]

Resident Evil 4

[notbov]

Left 4 Dead feels like a skeleton in comparison to L4D2 unless you just want the unmessed versus mode. the best part is, since they ported the original's maps to the sequel, you can go ahead and compare it for yourself and realize that, yes, a lot of the changes and additions in terms of mechanics, special infected and map design make it a far meatier game.

also, Sin & Punishment 2.
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[CubaLibre]

[Felix]

I can't believe we're back to the ic Mario World discussion, that was always one of my favourite topics to be arbitrarily invested with tremendous crypto-pixel significance

(for the record I think Mario World is pretty great, and I probably couldn't be bothered to pick between it or SMB3. I also couldn't really choose between any of the 16-bit Sonic titles but as I've mentioned before I only really like about a third of each of them and I'm still waiting for someone to make a greatest hits romhack.)

anyhoo I agree with nearly all of this thread. MGS2 and MGS3 are both equally solid on this measure (all of the PSX Final Fantasies as well to a lesser extent). also: SC2K, Riven, TIE Fighter (without even mentioning Warcraft 2, Starcraft, or Mechwarrior 2 because I don't dig them as much, it's pretty clear that 90s PC sequels were pretty much all incredibly worthy). Melee is another boring answer no one's mentioned yet, as is Dark Souls as a successor to Demon's (I had actually assumed this topic was made in response to DkS2, which as I've said in the other thread is actually fairly intelligent/effective as a sequel, though I don't think it's enough of a straightforward improvement to qualify here). I like to consider Rhythm Tengoku a sequel to the original WarioWare and the GBA original is definitely brilliant enough that I'd count it here though I think that's just me.

[diplo]

Melee is a great choice. Its time of appearance and its offerings compared to the first game are something that I don't think'll ever be duplicated, at least in the current history of videogames. From one legitimate perspective, yeah, it's a pure explosion of kitsch, but I think it's the good kind of kitsch, or a kitsch with the right kind of presentation. And I can't ignore how much time I spent with it.

I figured when we were talking about sequels we were only talking about the second game in a series.

[TXTSWORD]

doesnt dks2 hve enough threads guys

[Ni Go Zero Ichi]

Yeah Melee is beyond exemplary for the "refine and expand" category of sequels. I can't think of anything else that did both so spectacularly.
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[CubaLibre]

Would heavily disagree that DkS is a linear refinement/expansion of DeS. It has relative strengths and weaknesses and I can't really decide which game I like better. (Though I spent many, many more hours on Demon's.)
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