[tiburon]

E-sports thread. Discuss league, doter, cowadoody, halo, and all other manner of cyber-athletics

is starcraft 2 still alive?
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[meauxdal]

someone please play awesomenauts with me
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[tiburon]

current state of competitive communities

LoL: huge
DotA: huge
CSGO: thriving
CoD Ghosts: bad game being saved by $$$
Halo: no good games since 07 but keeping the faith
Gears: Life support I think
Melee: "are we FGC" (thriving)
Brawl: slow death afaik
Project M: growing?
SC2: idk
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[GrimmSweeper]

CSGo tournaments got thrown a lot of money by Steam recently to promote the sport so it's definitely on the upturn.

DotA finished up the StarLadder series and I think it's just a series of minor tournaments for a while. Similarly LoL's Champion's League Spring season finished up with no changes to the teams in EU and Complexity and LMQ replacing Coast and XMG respectively in NA. Nothing particularly special happening until the All Stars in Paris.

Been seeing a lot more of Melee tournaments in twitch lately so good on them. I'll occasionally watch from time to time.

SC2 limps along quietly.

[tiburon]

Is SC2 considered a bad game? A friend was telling me about how there's hype because of the money but Skype convos keep leaking with programmers talking about what a bad game they made.
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[meauxdal]

what are your favorite competitive non fighting games to watch? i have thoroughly enjoyed watching a variety of blizzard rts matches ranging from warcraft ii to starcraft ii, and LoL is a good watch sometimes. halo can be fun if they know what to show.
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[gary oldman dwarfism]

[tiburon]

[Pat the Great]

I haven't been following SC2 actively, but I believe it's still alive and scraping by -- just not particularly hype these days. Anecdotally, the game itself seems to be in a pretty good place as far as design health goes (in terms of enabling lots of player options in each matchup) but I think some of the early SC2 hype was just around watching people play video games, and other games have shown up to compete in that space since then.
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-pat m.
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[| BLUE | BLACK | PURPLE |]

Well, I play Hearthstone (but am a scrub nub, as I just started out maybe two weeks ago). Someone should maybe make a thread about that game.

Is this just about team e-sports or also one-on-one? Hearthstone is the latter (and not a fighting game, a free to play collectible card game).

I like watching ESGN on YouTube. Kripparian is a cool player and he's also boss in Path of Exile (I don't know if you count that one as e-sports — it's like the Diablo games), and Trump is also a fun player.

[The Blueberry Hill]

Is this thread about Dog Days?

[The Blueberry Hill]

I found this MOBA:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=252267809

'C'est ce que vous proposes Divine Might un tout nouveau genre de MOBA en 2D, avec des graphismes rétros.'


BTW, there is already an E-sports thread: http://forums.selectbutton.net/viewtopic.php?t=33388

[tiburon]

from that thread:

[tiburon]

anyways i want this to be less about just watching and more about doing

like the FGC thread except about more games, you know
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[Talbain]

I'm kind of annoyed that League of Legends is as popular as it is because it's not an enjoyable game to watch in the least. It's a team based game where team coordination is only apparent to people who play the game religiously, meaning that unless you really enjoy DotA style games, there's nothing there for you.

Starcraft 2 is interesting but the primary problem is they spend half an hour doing "analysis" between every match instead of just queuing up matches back to back, which is what they used to do. It feels like they're trying to give commentators a purpose when their purpose was always just to talk about matches as they went on, not after the fact. That's the fundamental problem I feel exists with most of the games aside from fighting games, is that matches have since taken a backseat to talking about the matches, which I don't care about.

Starcraft 2 seems like a really balanced game from watching it, but all that means is that I see a variety of strategies employed every game and that rarely is it the case where each player isn't doing something different from one game to the next. I think base trades and even wars occurring without any bases at all are the most interesting situations I've seen that have popped up more recently.

I still enjoy watching fighting games more than anything else though. They have an energy about them and the personalities are something none of the other competitive communities have.

Aside from fighting games Reed, I don't really play any of the games you've mentioned. They're pretty much more fun to watch than they are to play for me. I still play Mount & Blade and I think that's the most fun competitive game aside from Dark Souls 2. I occasionally play Bad Company 2 still, but I get bored with it pretty quickly.
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[notbov]

[Talbain]

I played the DotA games when they were still in their infancy in Warcraft 3, but those games are markedly different from what MOBAs now are (much the same as modern tower defense games), and it's hard to appreciate what they have become given the original design idea. That said, I do feel as if the idea is much similar to that of a first-person shooter game, that eventually that creative well runs dry and what is left is either generic grimdark or generic fantasy, League largely following the latter. And having played those kinds of games it's readily apparent that there is a lot that eventually gets lost pursuing something that has lost a lot of its creative direction. I think that because Warcraft 3 had a limiting factor on its creative capacity, the game itself had to be more creative (that is, there is a limit to how many "original" characters you could really have, and at some point you just get palette swaps; so instead mechanical focus needs to evolve once initial design is finished).

Also, it's not that I cannot understand what is occurring in the game, that's relatively simple. It is that team dynamics are not apparent in the game, they are apparent outside of it and to veterans. Whereas a game like football or baseball or soccer have those dynamics "baked in" the game.
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[notbov]

but the team dynamics are apparent in the game in the current team meta, since each player is essentially playing a position and their job at any given moment depends on their position and selection of champion(s). hell, even if things like tanks or junglers or carries are obtuse, the fact that one position is just "support" should should point to their being something at play in-game. also, if dynamics are apparent to veterans, that just means they need to be made apparent to newcomers which, again, I think Riot does a fine job of doing in their broadcasts.

moreover, I think a better analog for LoL in the sports world is basketball, where team play is important, but individual play can still carry or push a team over the top, where team dynamics are always in play even if they aren't obvious and where the score and certain stats aren't always indicative of the final outcome or even mid-match momentum.

I want to say something about mechanics re: Riot's seasonal system, but work
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[notbov]

whoops I was wrong about work

I think Riot's decision to keep most of the iteration of the game on champion mechanics instead of game mechanics is wise, as it allows anyone to jump in on a character with a label and get a grasp at how they are played without actually having experience at them (of course there are some exceptions, like Leona, who was meant as a tank but is picked a majority of the time as a support), which is a part of their business/scam. they also only make major changes to the game in-between seasons (like real sports) and instead focus their mid-season efforts at balancing champions and items, which are the real lifeblood of how the game is played, and even then they delay when patches get deployed into the LCS by a week or two to allow teams to alter their strategies around the changes. at the very least, it's set standards for how future games will manage their leagues.
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[Talbain]

[Glam Grimfire]

I've been playing Archeblade on steam a lot. It's probably not balanced that well, but the game is wicked sick fun and combines my love for arena-combat games and what I've enjoyed about the few MOBA's i've played.
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##SKELETON PARTY (new article as of 04/26/14)Grim

[notbov]

well, you all could play MNC/Super MNC, which are MOBA third-person shootmans, but they're both dead now, so good job everyone who plays games/Uber caring more about not-Total Annihilation

(so, so very bitter)
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[Zmann]

[notbov]

did you try Turbo? it's pretty much MNC but with the new pros and maps and skills

I liked Super Crossfire (the launch mode) and felt that initial slowed down gameplay helped reign in one person going crazy and getting waaaay ahead of everyone else (not that you can't do that in Super if you have the right product/pro setup) and made team play more satisfying. which is to say I loved hearing the rage from a grapple train.

grapples are the best CC ever and I wish every game had them
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[Zmann]

Ugh, I forgot about grapples. I sort of hated those, too. Super long CC where NEITHER player get to do anything. Least interactive CC.

[tiburon]

Watching Iron Gaming pool play: http://www.twitch.tv/irongamingtv

It's making me believe that Halo is actually dead.

Backstory: After Halo: Reach was released in a competitively broken state , interest in the game dwindled, even after Halo continued to be in MLG. Reach was eventually dropped from MLG partway through the 2012 season. This was the first time Halo had been dropped from MLG tournaments since Halo 1. Halo 4 came out in a competitively broken state (and has remained that way). It was dropped from MLG within a year.

After MLG dropped halo, it was picked up by some scumbags known as the Arena Gaming League (AGL). Long story short, they held a bunch of events, canceled their last event a week before it was supposed to happen, and stole a bunch of money from Halo players. They only recently resurfaced and began to pay what they owed, probably because there was a reddit shitstorm about it.

Shortly after this all goes down, Iron Gaming steps in, waving around $50k in prize money (actually more like $20k for the Halo portion), and promising a poll for the game they will play. A highly suspicious vote occurs where Halo 4 wins, with a significant percentage of votes coming from one IP address in Michigan somewhere.

Now IG pool play is here and it's got 9 (nine) teams entered, bored commentators, people bitching in the chat about Halo 4, and 170 max viewership. IG is also very defensive about their choice of game in the chat. Meanwhile former Halo 3 pro Naded is getting 400+ viewers streaming random H3 matchmaking.
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[tiburon]

On the other hand you had Insomnia51 which, quite sensibly, chose to run Halo 3. The boys at TopMid (EU Halo site) have their shit together, and they got 11 teams to show up for double elim, producing some fantastic matches with good production values. Hats off to those guys for organizing something instead of bitching endlessly about a dead scene. Double IG's viewership without anywhere near the prize money.

My favorite series was probably Reign vs. TG. These two teams would meet again in grand finals.
Match starts at 1:04:00: http://www.twitch.tv/multiplay_halo/b/521285266

Seriously watch that series it's what Halo 4v4 can be at its best.
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[meauxdal]

will halo ever recover in 5 and beyond - on the record
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[tiburon]

http://halocharts.com/2013/playlists_halo4.php

the good thing is that the audience is still hanging on, waiting for something to happen. the bad news is that they've been embittered by years of bad games, scumbag TOs, and dev doublespeak. one thing I get mad about a lot is the complacency/entitlement of the competitive halo community. there's a big percentage of people that just want to sit around and wait for 'a good halo game' rather than play the ones that are already out there. And not just play them, but organize tournaments, travel to events, publicize, create content to get people into the scene. There's just very very few people doing shit like that, because they've been spoiled by MLG and Xbox Live since Halo 2.

On the dev side, 343 has been hiring a bunch of former pro players/coaches (Ghos7ayam3, Bravo, Neighbor, Dersky) as well as MLG's production guy (lenoxcoolgamer). The popular theory is that they are looking to go the dev-sponsored tourney route, either for Halo 5 or the long-rumored Halo 2 Anniversary. What we don't know is whether the game will actually be any good.

honestly, i think the dream solution would be to go the melee route. organize your own events, do your own production, learn how to be a goddamn community. win your independence from the teats of developer support and wannabe-MLG companies that throw money around. Imagine if Nintendo would 'support' a smash tournament, but only if tripping was enabled. That's what Halo 4 tournaments are like. And any TO that chooses Halo 4 is playing into that.

it's a shame most people in the community don't want to organize their own shit and go grassroots. they would rather wait and interpret every tweet from 343 employees like a soothsayer interprets tea leaves. it's easier and they can pretend they were once good at a dead game.

(speaking of Smash, halo actually even has counterparts to Project M. Some for Reach, some for Halo 4. they're all relatively obscure because kids only want to support something that has the 343/MLG stamp of approval. and in the later years, MLG settings had become like "Fox only, Final Destination" - a caricature of the word "competitive" that cut out a large part of the game.)
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[chocolatecoffin]

I got very into CS:GO while studying abroad last year. It was the perfect combo of "I love counter strike" and "I still get to talk to my friends on team speak even though I'm in Germany (why am I in Germany?)". It's been really interesting to see how much the GO scene has grown, seemingly since the introduction of crate drops + items (in the TF2/DOTA2 sense). What's weird about CS:GO is that there is an eventual technical skill ceiling which is unsurpassable by any average player; watching high level play is as inspiring as it is off putting. Obviously a history in DOTA means you'll have an advantage in DOTA 2, but CS in particular has that twitch sensitive aiming controls which makes me wish I had never stopped playing ten years ago (not to say that CS isn't a largely tactical thing, or that DOTA doesn't require technical proficiency). I think 'E-sports', in contrast to most 'sports', are intriguing because they offer the audience the exact same playing field and criteria as the professionals, and as such, an e-sport that is interesting to watch will succeed in being played more. F2P and item drop mechanics have been so ingrained into this advertising loop that it's hard to imagine things like DOTA2 dying off. I'd be in seeing a popularity of game : number of possible available items ratio comparison.
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[tiburon]

complexity sold their CoD team to EG. coL is basically the Final Boss of CoD (aka the team that wins all the tourneys) so it's a pretty big deal

also holy shit everybody in smash is getting sponsored. Mango got picked up by cloud 9 after winning WHOBO (MLG qualifier). adding to chillindude going to curse, nintendude to team apex, ken to teamliquid, hungrybox to curse. smash is clearly on everybody's radar atm

Also GimR (the spooky of smash) released a vid asking for 500 subs so he can make smash streaming his day job; he got 170 subs in the first 25 minutes
http://smashboards.com/threads/vgbootcamp-launches-freegimr-campaign.354632/
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