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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:27 pm |
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| i admit i can't tell if the evopsych biotruth stuff is sarcastic or serious, so now it's my turn to make the ! sound |
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Reed
Joined: 09 Aug 2014
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:36 pm |
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| | BLUE | BLACK | PURPLE | wrote: |
| tiburon wrote: |
| username wrote: |
| diplo wrote: |
Yeah, I didn't think you were suggesting that. I'm wondering what username was suggesting, though; the "still" in their last sentence suggests that a criticism is being made of Sarkeesian's role as an analyst and relative newcomer to videogames. The only criticism I can intuit is that Sarkeesian's "outsiderness" is making her blind to contextual insight that can only be had by being a "gamer." |
Didn't mean to disappear, the forum has been crapping out on me on and off for the past few days.
In terms of the insider/outsider divide and the stacks of games she played... is it said if she acquired and played them all before or after she decided to make a series of videos about these topics? If it is after, or to put it another way her interest isn't about gaming but these other various women's issues (or, very important to note, it is perceived that this is the case) then that'd generally be considered more of an outside role I would imagine.
Also outsider POVs are great and we need more of them! The only thing I wanted to point out is that when an outsider (again whether actual or just perceived) moves from observing and into lecturing (again whether actual or perceived) a group on their behavior or traits or whatever the group more often than not responds poorly to it, regardless of how on point said thoughts are. The messenger often matters. She can probably present these ideas much better than... let's say Cliffy B, but it'd probably be taken better from someone in his position.
...I really wanted to find a notable female in the game industry on the level of Cliffy B and use her instead, but I couldn't name one :\
The "still" was because while I felt like looking at part of what may be fueling this kind and level of reaction, I didn't want doing so to come off as declaring her deserving of the terrible things directed at her. I was worried it might be taken as "she kicked a hornet's nest and hence deserved to get stung". If I accidentally made it seem more that way I apologize. |
I think there are a bunch of important female game devs, but not a bunch of highly visible ones, for whatever reason.
Example. |
What?! Roberta Williams is awesome and everybody knows it! She's been getting attention and acclaim for like 30 years now. I read about her in PC mags in the nineties. Every game she brings out nowadays gets press — at least they reach me. I'm not representative of anything of course. Are you saying nobody knows about her nowadays or that she didn't get enough press back in the day? It's not like I studied her so I really don't know |
She's not as visible to 'modern gamers' as Phil Fish or Cliffy B though. (probably cuz she doesn't say stupid shit on Twitter)
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:49 pm |
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Wait what do you mean "nowadays"? Williams' last videogame credit on Mobygames is Phantasmagoria. Also, her games totally suck. Unless she got good in the last 20 years and has been making games that nobody's put on Mobygames that I don't know about.
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diplo
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
Location: Brandy Brendo's bungalow
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:09 pm |
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| username wrote: |
| The "still" was because while I felt like looking at part of what may be fueling this kind and level of reaction, I didn't want doing so to come off as declaring her deserving of the terrible things directed at her. I was worried it might be taken as "she kicked a hornet's nest and hence deserved to get stung". If I accidentally made it seem more that way I apologize. |
All right. Thanks for clarifying.
Having these videos researched and produced by a game developer, man, or both would probably only lessen the outrage in the most minimal way or would change some of the specific accusations and threats (for example, threats of personally enacted rape might become wishes for rape enacted by another; or a man would be accused of "buying into Feminism" rather than being its nefarious manufacturer; etc.). I stand by what I wrote earlier:
| diplo wrote: |
| There is literally no way to present this material and not outrage the people who are outraged. It is 100% off-limits for them. |
and, basically,
| Corinth wrote: |
| I'm sure that if Jade Raymond were doing this series there would be absolutely no misogynist blowback and all of these dudes would be happy hearing about sexism in their videogames from an "insider." |
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The King
Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:48 pm |
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Cuba, you don't like the King's Quest games?
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CubaLibre
the road lawyer
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Location: Balmer
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| BLUE | BLACK | PURPLE |
true doom murderhead
Joined: 17 May 2008
Location: Austria
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:38 am |
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| Oh shit that's right, I was thinking about Gray Matter, which was by Jane Jensen. Pretty embarrassing but the two used to work together so they're grouped closely in my mind |
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| BLUE | BLACK | PURPLE |
true doom murderhead
Joined: 17 May 2008
Location: Austria
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:58 pm |
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| Corinth wrote: |
| i admit i can't tell if the evopsych biotruth stuff is sarcastic or serious, so now it's my turn to make the ! sound |
I tend to not be precise with these things.
What I'm saying is, Sarkeesian says x is inherently problematic, gives no reason for why she thinks so AND gives a WRONG reason for where it comes from. As in, culture. I say x is not cultural because it is not specific to our culture, damn near universal, thus must come from somewhere else, point to clues about biology (nothing set in stone, nothing 100%, doesn't prescribe action), point to possible evolutionary hypothesis (interesting but doesn't prescribe action), say "it's more likely that this is part of our culture for those reasons" instead of some random or even devious reason.
Blue supposedly being for boys and pink for girls is random or marketing, for example. You can not just look that up historically but also there's no proof that it's preferred by the assigned genders outside of cultural reasons. So if you say "in general boys prefer blue, it's just in their nature, that's why we sell Boy Things in Boy Colors and Girl Things in Girl Colors, it wouldn't work otherwise" then you're wrong, but if you say "we make legal teen porn/objectifying, non-whole person depicting porn because men like it, it's in their nature, it wouldn't work otherwise" then you're right. Not in absolutes, of course, taking only about majorities and statistic likelihoods here. Some men love granny porn. Some can't get off without a convincing plot and characters (maybe??).
That's how I should have structured my post but I preferred to ramble and hoped people would give me the benefit of the doubt to interpret it like that. Also would have included a "x is not inherently problematic because evidence points to there not being a correlation between x and Bad Thing."
If you think this is terrible biotruths or whatever buzzword then I'm sorry, guess I just haven't learnt better yet and you'll have to give me some time to improve
The one thing that she said the GQ video was not about — young children seeing the sexualization of their pretend-high school age heroes — is the thing I worry about because there is evidence of these images having a negative influence on them, regarding psychological problems, stress, body image, etc. But the things she sees as inherently problematic I see as not so and if I had to argue my point I'd do it with this sort of pattern. If I wasn't lazy. |
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Mr. Mechanical
ontological terrorist
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Scare Room 99
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schroeder
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Location: Interior of mind n+1
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:55 pm |
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| Brooks wrote: |
It has to be the plaid
It's the only thing I'm jealous of anyway |
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Reed
Joined: 09 Aug 2014
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:02 pm |
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| | BLUE | BLACK | PURPLE | wrote: |
| Some can't get off without a convincing plot and characters (maybe??). |
this is me!
basically stick to well-written manga/doujin for this reason.
Western porn is so fake and disgusting a lot of the time.
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schroeder
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Location: Interior of mind n+1
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:33 pm |
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| Reed wrote: |
| | BLUE | BLACK | PURPLE | wrote: |
| Some can't get off without a convincing plot and characters (maybe??). |
this is me!
basically stick to well-written manga/doujin for this reason.
Western porn is so fake and disgusting a lot of the time. |
We have a whole thread for this!
(An invitation, not a reproach.) |
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Ni Go Zero Ichi
Joined: 10 Sep 2011
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GcDiaz
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Clinton, MA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:59 pm |
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How the hell this this video merit a 4-page thread?
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Mr. Mechanical
ontological terrorist
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Scare Room 99
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:38 pm |
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| GcDiaz wrote: |
| How the hell this this video merit a 4-page thread? |
It wasn't the video the thread was about so much as the reaction to the video.
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Ratoslov
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:10 pm |
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| Mr. Mechanical wrote: |
| It wasn't the video the thread was about so much as the reaction to the video. |
Which is still going on. And is still madness. |
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Mr. Mechanical
ontological terrorist
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Scare Room 99
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:21 pm |
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Yep.
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| internisus wrote: |
| You are a pretty fucked up guy. |
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Oh God Spiders No
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:02 pm |
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People are now accusing her of faking the death/rape threats levied against her. However, the people who are making these accusations appear to be, all kidding aside, actually mentally deficient in a real way.
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misadventurous
Joined: 29 Nov 2012
Location: witch city
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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Baseballkappe
Joined: 14 Nov 2010
Location: France
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a pair of gators
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Location: techno, trance, and torment music
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:19 am |
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| diplo wrote: |
| username wrote: |
| The "still" was because while I felt like looking at part of what may be fueling this kind and level of reaction, I didn't want doing so to come off as declaring her deserving of the terrible things directed at her. I was worried it might be taken as "she kicked a hornet's nest and hence deserved to get stung". If I accidentally made it seem more that way I apologize. |
All right. Thanks for clarifying.
Having these videos researched and produced by a game developer, man, or both would probably only lessen the outrage in the most minimal way or would change some of the specific accusations and threats (for example, threats of personally enacted rape might become wishes for rape enacted by another; or a man would be accused of "buying into Feminism" rather than being its nefarious manufacturer; etc.). I stand by what I wrote earlier:
| diplo wrote: |
| There is literally no way to present this material and not outrage the people who are outraged. It is 100% off-limits for them. |
and, basically,
| Corinth wrote: |
| I'm sure that if Jade Raymond were doing this series there would be absolutely no misogynist blowback and all of these dudes would be happy hearing about sexism in their videogames from an "insider." |
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i feel like if an ""insider"" made these videos, the anonymous hate brigade would be trying to get them fired from whatever job they had in the industry. look at what happened to mike sacco because he (rightfully) took issue with some writing in fucking borderlands 2 of all things. people in the industry are (rightfully) terrified of their audience and aren't speaking out, which makes outsider perspectives crucial |
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schroeder
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Location: Interior of mind n+1
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:36 pm |
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| a pair of gators wrote: |
| people in the industry are (rightfully) terrified of their audience |
Further evidence of corruption!
The paranoid style in videogame politics |
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Ratoslov
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:44 pm |
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| Guys, if this is who gamers are, I'm not a gamer anymore. I think I'll just be a person who plays some video games and doesn't talk to gamers, because gamers are fucking horrible. |
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Loki Laufeyson
fps fragmaster
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Beneath the Mushroom Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:59 pm |
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i always found the idea of calling oneself a gamer a little uncomfortable, even before it came to mean what it has in recent times, same with any similar kind of grouping, like the ones of my schooldays based on musical tastes or preferred clothing style or whatever
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Felix
unofficial repository
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: vancouver
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:05 pm |
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| schroeder wrote: |
| a pair of gators wrote: |
| people in the industry are (rightfully) terrified of their audience |
Further evidence of corruption!
The paranoid style in videogame politics |
nice |
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mauve
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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Dark Age Iron Savior
king of finders
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Location: Spacecraft, Juanelia Country
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:43 pm |
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this debate feels kind of like a Marvel or DC annual event where a simple and interesting concept is muddled and pulled a half-dozen different ways due to crossovers/tie-ins/limited series before ultimately coming to a whimper of an end that promises major status quo changes but which will likely be mostly or entirely reversed within 5 to 10 years, and the best thing you can hope for is that the most intelligent people who worked on it will learn from it and refine their efforts in order to do better in the future.
And like such events, I feel a lot of people are just going to ignore what doesn't immediately concern them, wait a year and then read about it on Wikipedia. |
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mauve
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:52 pm |
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after having my twitter feed filled with this for weeks, i'm pretty sure at this point it has nothing to do with journalism, or feminism, or any of that stuff. it's all to do with protecting with the status quo. the underlying arguments of 'don't take my games away' and 'don't give in to these people, that's corruption' are the only common factors.
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schroeder
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Location: Interior of mind n+1
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:52 pm |
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| Dark Age Iron Savior wrote: |
this debate feels kind of like a Marvel or DC annual event where a simple and interesting concept is muddled and pulled a half-dozen different ways due to crossovers/tie-ins/limited series before ultimately coming to a whimper of an end that promises major status quo changes but which will likely be mostly or entirely reversed within 5 to 10 years, and the best thing you can hope for is that the most intelligent people who worked on it will learn from it and refine their efforts in order to do better in the future.
And like such events, I feel a lot of people are just going to ignore what doesn't immediately concern them, wait a year and then read about it on Wikipedia. |
But why did they have to get Liefeld to illustrate? |
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Brooks
Joined: 08 Apr 2007
Location: peak caucasity
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:58 pm |
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| I'll be fascinated to see if any of this episode has a detectable impact, positive or negative, on AAA development hence, betting slim to none |
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Mr. Mechanical
ontological terrorist
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Scare Room 99
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:06 pm |
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| Ratoslov wrote: |
| Guys, if this is who gamers are, I'm not a gamer anymore. I think I'll just be a person who plays some video games and doesn't talk to gamers, because gamers are fucking horrible. |
Post-gamer
Ur-gamer
Uber-gamer
Wait. Player.
We're Players now. People who play. Haha.
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| internisus wrote: |
| You are a pretty fucked up guy. |
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Mr. Mechanical
ontological terrorist
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Scare Room 99
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:11 pm |
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I liked this a lot.
For the first time since I started caring about the state of games writing/criticism/whatever a decade ago I feel like there's actual progress being made.
Not enough progress, obviously, but Stuff is Starting to Change and that's neat. We should keep it up.
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| internisus wrote: |
| You are a pretty fucked up guy. |
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Mr. Mechanical
ontological terrorist
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Scare Room 99
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:20 pm |
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| Brooks wrote: |
| I'll be fascinated to see if any of this episode has a detectable impact, positive or negative, on AAA development hence, betting slim to none |
Maybe not but (some) will continue to talk about it at least somewhat intelligently and thoughtfully. It counts for something that being a "social justice warrior" is even a thing. I actually want to read more criticism of games written around issues of social justice.
I think there's a market for that, a new demographic that isn't being catered to by the AAA industry. The issue now is using incidents like this to further convince the AAA industry that this is a demographic worth catering too instead of the reactionary manchild demo.
As terrible as it is that people get harassed and threatened at least it's forcing a certain kind of conversation onto the general gaming public that has been sorely needed for a good while now.
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| internisus wrote: |
| You are a pretty fucked up guy. |
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a pair of gators
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Location: techno, trance, and torment music
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:10 pm |
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yeah i was going to say y'all are treating a thing where a bunch of women are dealing with weeks of doxxing and violent threats like an intellectual exercise or a comic book arc
i'm seeing good writers that are talking about games in new and more culturally aware ways (jenn frank, mattie brice, and samantha allen) being terrorized into leaving games criticism all together, and other commentators and developers are being forced to leave their homes because they're fearing for their lives. i've dealt with doxxing/harassment that was 100x milder than all this before and that was terrifying -- i can't even imagine going through what these women are right now. |
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Baseballkappe
Joined: 14 Nov 2010
Location: France
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:39 pm |
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Here is a paste of my opinion as featured on facebook, at this point why not:
« i don't like abuse and/or fascists
fascists don't care about intellectual integrity. there's no debate to be had. they will take seemingly legitimate concerns and twist them into their hateful agenda. do not talk with them. fight them.
this has nothing to do with gaming or "gamers" and all to do with dishonest misogynist abusers. we need to god dang stop meeting them on their terms unless we want to give them more legitimacy and power. »
Fuck this whole thing being a Debate or an Issue. There's nothing to talk about. Who gives a shit how abusers define themselves? Who gives a shit if they like video games? They're fascists. Call them what they are and stop engaging them.
Don't call out the industry for catering to them. The industry is not your friend and it will never be. Fight them. |
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Zodar
Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Location: egg
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:22 pm |
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the only part of video game culture worth protecting is the unique creative voices within it, and that's exactly what's under attack right now
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mauve
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:28 pm |
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even if you get rid of the harassing idiots, the situation that gave them power is still going to remain
honestly what on earth can you even do to get rid of them beyond knock their legs out at this point? twitter sure doesn't give a shit.
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twit |
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capgamer
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:52 am |
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I really like this article and I think it gives a good view of the situation without getting passionate about bemoaning those who consider themselves "gamers" for their misogyny or perceived misogyny.
Gamergate is basically doomed to fail, but it will be interesting to see what comes out of it. I like the author's suggestion that people disenchanted with the existing game journalism sites would create new websites to fill their personal niche. |
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parker
a wolf adventuring
Joined: 31 May 2007
Location: suplex city
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:43 am |
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GcDiaz
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Clinton, MA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:02 pm |
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This reminds me, my psn profile has "gamer" in quotes, for months now. Gonna need to change that, or add "Formerly known as".
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