[diplo]

Sarkeesian could make all sorts of tonal changes (lord knows what those changes would be) and nothing would change on the end of the people who feel threatened by her stuff. They have already decided to hate her and block out whatever she has to say, no matter what. This is the Internet: you make one "fuck up" and you are forever defined by that "fuck up."

[mauve]

[8128]

man thank god i have you guys to read to help balance out the rest of this god damn nightmare
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[Felix]

[Takashi]

[misadventurous]

[Talbain]

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/224400/Gamers_dont_have_to_be_your_audience_Gamers_are_over.php
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[evnvnv]

it's funny because an exaggerated sense of having been victimized is the only thing that could explain why someone could react to video game criticism with death threats
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The text will not live forever. The cup are small

[Kinto]

I was hoping the video would get a little more discussion before we got to the angry children :C

[Ratoslov]

[Ni Go Zero Ichi]

[CubaLibre]

[diplo]

http://www.newstatesman.com/future-proof/2014/08/tropes-vs-anita-sarkeesian-passing-anti-feminist-nonsense-critique

[Ni Go Zero Ichi]

Hey diplo & co. I'm kinda sick of you insinuating that the only reason I or others could possibly have anything negative to say about Anita is because we're secretly basement-dwelling professional misogynists
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Just another savage day on Planet Earth.

[diplo]

That's not what I'm insinuating at all. The threat you're perceiving from Sarkeesian and her supporters is really weird, though.

Do you still believe what you've said even after she has explicitly laid out that is it not her intent to call for blanket censorship?

[Toups]

these videos come with a straight up disclaimer "it is possible to enjoy and appreciate a work while still pointing out its more problematic aspects"

I don't know if there even IS any larger message to these videos than to simply observe these problems. it is something that a lot of people simply are not aware of, though it's becoming clear that many of them would rather not know.

which kind of makes it all the stronger of an imperative.
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[Ni Go Zero Ichi]

[Toups]

maybe you should reconsider some assumptions you are holding that could contribute to that perception
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[EnDevero]

[Talbain]

[Zodar]

[boojiboy7]

I'm kinda amazed she didn't cover dMc more, unless she did that in one of her other vids I haven't watched. That game is a mess for this stuff.

[John Mc.]

It feels like the more I read about this the more I see very visceral pronouncements from each side. "Repellant." "Nauseated." I feel that there is the opportunity for some genuine feedback here, but can it be discussed at all. Maybe a lot of people have made up their mind about Anita and her work, but I haven't. How am I supposed to when it seems everyone else is thinking with their hearts?

There are shades of investment in a sense of ego and personality that debases the discussion of women in video games to a "for or against" debacle. On both sides! Isn't there somebody in the middle just looking at it, or is this actually Anita herself? Is the espoused feminist the moderate view?

It feels like it should be more academic than this. Still haven't watched them though, so really the only opinion I have is of the Internet collectively rending garments all over the place.

[Zodar]

arguments -- like sarkeesian's videos, or the few even-handed criticisms of them -- can be engaged academically. witch hunts, ad hominem attacks and public campaigns of harassment can't-- especially when they're based on scant, unfounded evidence and paranoia. to try to do so is to legitimize them as acceptable forms of discourse. the only response is to say "this behavior is unacceptable, and you need to stop."

"nauseated" is not my response to an even-handed critique of Sarkeesian's videos, of which i'm sure there are many. it's my response to a bunch of legal adults throwing a temper tantrum and trying to sabotage a woman's career and reputation because she said something disagreeable, for the umpteenth time

i find it hard to equate the worst actions of both "sides" when i see the sheer volume of bile 4chan and the like are spitting up.
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stong

[John Mc.]

My last post hopefully made clear that threats of violence are unequivocally unacceptable, and that should be the idea of common sense around here (I would hope). No need to belabor the point.

My effort is not to condemn either side (actions should speak for that), but to assess the merits of the complaints. It feels that things are too affectively charged at the moment. What might some of these even-handed responses be? It will help for when I watch the videos, as I fear this won't be going away any time soon.

[Ni Go Zero Ichi]

[Ronk]

why do the people who dislike her videos always get so up in arms about how she got the money to make them? she kickstarted the thing and people who wanted to support her and FF gave her money. and people (who didn't kickstart) are mad because "THIS is what people got?" man, what the fuck do you care.

also "attempts to critique her public persona" are pretty much the only other "side" to this "conversation" and most of those critiques boil down to "fake gamer girl" or (as what i gleamed from john mc's previous post about "tone") "you can catch more flies with honey, so why don't you smile more, girl???".

if things feel actively charged it's because the vile dorks who make threats brought it to that level from moment one. and if this post sounds flippant its because it is. fuck those guys, there's no "measured discourse" or "both sides have good points" claims. it's a series of academic list videos about a few tropes and an army of hurt insecure children who think those videos are calling them sexist monster goblins (which the videos explicitly state otherwise).
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[misadventurous]

[Felix]

[Ni Go Zero Ichi]

[diplo]

[CubaLibre]

[diplo]

[misadventurous]

[Reed]

well here's a topic i want to post in
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hi it's reed
this is where i stream now

[Ronk]

thank you cuba and diplo for saying what i wanted to say but better

thank you misadventurous for also feelin' me


sorry for any perceived personal harshness, Ni Go Zero Ichi, but you're getting quite defensive about it, when most of the time i want to vent at these trolls who, as we have all agreed, are saying some really remarkably nasty shit.
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[Toups]

there is a fair amount of earnest, substantial criticism you could legitimately make about her arguments.

but consider that this started off as a small, obscure project. if it had not had the poor fortune of becoming a target of internet harassment, it likely would have stayed that way. her videos may have still garnered a following, and some criticism, but I cannot imagine them having even an ounce of the controversy they now have. so the well was poisoned by that campaign of harassment long before her first video was ever made. she did not plan or ask for that harassment, but it set the tone for all events to follow. as a result, ANY criticisms made against carry the weight of that harassment. it is impossible to fairly or earnestly engage in a critical discussion of her work without acknowledging the consequences of that history. so... to simply criticize her arguments while overlooking or dismissing that essential piece of context is HIGHLY disingenuous, and yeah, makes you look your argument comes more from being threatened than any earnest attempt at discourse.

to claim that she exploited the harassment for her own gain is to dismiss the dismiss the persistent and harmful impact of that harassment, which is real and undeniable. getting tons of money from harassment did not make the harassment go away! it only allowed her to very easily complete her original stated goal for the project, which she has accomplished.

I think it is absolutely FAIR to criticize her final work, however to do so is also walking into a minefield. it must be done mindfully and carefully with complete awareness of context and facts. which is something no one on the internet is good at.
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[The King]

[Toups]

MORE to the point: there is NOTHING in her video series that anyone should consider entirely off limits for discussion. even if you disagree with her arguments and analyses, what exactly is the harm of her having a place to make them?

if there no harm in her having a place to make them, why does ANYONE care so much? she is just one person. hell, she probably would not even have much influence were it not for the campaigns carried out against her.
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[misadventurous]

[Felix]

Ni Go we spent like an entire page and a half mostly trying to reason with you and nothing else, I don't really see cause for blowing up in a huff after that