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Lick Meth
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: A constant state of flux
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 Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:36 pm |
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| idle wrote: |
| Talbain wrote: |
| idle, there's only one part of the entire thing even vaguely related to the raging demon. The before and after poses are pretty terrible and yes, regardless of what costume the character is wearing the animation is the same. It's gross either way and erodes a lot of my goodwill towards Platinum. I don't see the scene as defensible, even in the context of the game and while I'm not against games bringing it up or attempting to tackle the issue, I am against games doing it with all the subtlety of driving a tank through a shopping mall. |
What's terrible about the before pose?
That's what's throwing me off, really... you keep implying the scene as a whole is indefensible, but I don't see what's supposed to be objectionable about it aside from the way it ends. Is it the violence against the female main character? It's a character action game, a DMC clone. The whole thing revolves around violence (specifically, being able to inflict it upon enemies while avoiding getting beat up yourself). Is it the fact that Bayo is grabbed before the attack proper begins? There are a lot of games starring characters of both sexes where enemies can grab the player character before beating them up.
Should female characters be off limits for starring in violent games? |
Holy goddamn nobody can be this dense |
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idle
QUAD DAMAGE!!!
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:56 pm |
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lol, explain it to me then
what's terrible about one person grabbing another person during a melee fight? |
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miaou
Joined: 12 Dec 2012
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:10 pm |
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| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
...
Even under the most uncharitable interpretation, I'm not about to boycott the entire game, let alone call for Platinum's head, over a single tasteless gag that most people won't even see, let alone get; but it'll definitely hang over my head, when and if I get the game. On the other hand, even under the most generous interpretation it's still undeniable that the joke is based on the conflation of violence and sex, and I can fully understand why that would make some people uncomfortable. |
If it were just this one thing I'd criticise it as an incongruous & distasteful element and probably still buy the game, but when it's together with the other careless and/or offensive elements this one is for me like a very heavy straw on the camels' back, that I can't be confident that PlatinumGames are on my side with this character, that a reading of her as a camp icon requires discarding enough other information that it seems to me now as a reading based on wishful thinking rather than the game's actual content. Although it has been a while since i played Bayonetta 1, the things that stick never inspired as charitable an intepretation in me as they did in people like Maddy Myers. Some people are quite happy to pick over and create fanons about the bits to like and not to like in Bayonetta but I'm not going to pay for the privilege of patching someone elses' story.
I'm not calling for their heads I'm saying 'that makes me go yuck so I'm not going to buy it'. There is this everpresent discourse in videogames culture that finding a product distasteful is not a legitimate reason to not buy it, or that furthermore the stated intention not to buy it is a disproportionate response. It isn't. |
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miaou
Joined: 12 Dec 2012
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:25 pm |
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| It is a gendered grab. He grabs her by the hair, not by the throat or the shoulders/clothes lapels as in the original Shun-Goku-Satsu / Raging Demon attack. The only place you'll regularly see women being grabbed by the hair and thereby rendered helpless is violent pornography. |
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idle
QUAD DAMAGE!!!
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:34 pm |
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Thank you for actually giving me a serious reply instead of condescending snark, miaou.
It looks to me like he's grabbing her by the top of her head (though technically he's not even grabbing her at all; if you pause it you can see the character models don't even touch). I'd have an easier time agreeing with the argument that it's a gendered grab if they were the same size and he grabbed her that way, or if she still had long hair and he yanked on the end of it. As it is, it's ambiguous at worst in my opinion. |
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Tulpa
Joined: 31 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:50 pm |
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| miaou wrote: |
| Some people are quite happy to pick over and create fanons about the bits to like and not to like in Bayonetta but I'm not going to pay for the privilege of patching someone elses' story. |
While I think it is a fine choice to not buy a video game for all the reasons that could possibly exist, the part I quoted rubs me the wrong way because it feels unnecessarily condescending towards people that don't feel the same way as you. I get that folks have probably burnt through all patience you have for this kind of convo but this feels like you're reducing anyone that has a different reading as a stupid fan that doesn't know any better.
EDIT: I should note I also find the scene in question revolting and discomfiting.
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:43 pm |
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| tiburon wrote: |
yea master chief has always been a little white kid who got kidnapped, replaced with a clone and put through the bootcamp from hell. i wanna say it's been a thing since like 2001 (The Fall of Reach).
canon aside I did think it was shitty of Halo 4 to have that reveal be the Legendary ending. It was pretty much built up as a thing - don't reveal the chief's face, then you break that rule you built, and you do it at the end of the worst game in the series. and they didn't even do it all the way! I mean if you're going to say 'fuck this shit you get to see chief's wrinkly ass gran torino face' then at least show the face, not just a tiny bit of the eyes. you basically saw enough to say 'he's pale as a shut-in and has crows feet' |
ah i stand corrected. But yeah, shitty to do it in Halo 4, and it's a good symbol of 343 not doing things as well as Bungie w/r/t that series. |
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miaou
Joined: 12 Dec 2012
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:00 pm |
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| Tulpa wrote: |
| miaou wrote: |
| Some people are quite happy to pick over and create fanons about the bits to like and not to like in Bayonetta but I'm not going to pay for the privilege of patching someone elses' story. |
While I think it is a fine choice to not buy a video game for all the reasons that could possibly exist, the part I quoted rubs me the wrong way because it feels unnecessarily condescending towards people that don't feel the same way as you. I get that folks have probably burnt through all patience you have for this kind of convo but this feels like you're reducing anyone that has a different reading as a stupid fan that doesn't know any better.
EDIT: I should note I also find the scene in question revolting and discomfiting. |
I thought about this when I was writing it but I couldn't think of a less loaded way to phrase it, so please accept my assurance that I do not hold anyone in contempt for finding value in Bayonetta. |
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Ni Go Zero Ichi
Joined: 10 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:11 pm |
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miaou I never meant to suggest that not buying the game because you find its content distasteful is an unreasonable response; in fact, it's the most reasonable response there is. I was just trying to explain my own response to this, not attack yours.
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Lick Meth
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: A constant state of flux
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:54 pm |
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| idle wrote: |
lol, explain it to me then
what's terrible about one person grabbing another person during a melee fight? |
There's a world of difference between:
| miaou wrote: |
| It is a gendered grab. He grabs her by the hair, not by the throat or the shoulders/clothes lapels as in the original Shun-Goku-Satsu / Raging Demon attack. The only place you'll regularly see women being grabbed by the hair and thereby rendered helpless is violent pornography. |
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| idle wrote: |
| what's terrible about one person grabbing another person during a melee fight? |
Your text betrays your attitude completely. It's not just the attempt to boil the scenario down to its most basic occurance, but it deliberately clouds any context, both of the clip and any existing examples it draws from.
EDIT: not trying to draw miaou onto sides, just that it was a well-parsed description |
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schroeder
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Location: Interior of mind n+1
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:59 pm |
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| tacotaskforce wrote: |
| And as has been mentioned previously, Rodin, the character she is fighting, is her friend and probably the only man on the planet Bayonetta respects. I'm not at all surprised that this is what Bayonetta would consider normal sex. |
I wish the joke had been that he just relentlessly cuddles and showers her with chocolates and flowers until the vanilla sweetness crushes her. Harnessing the secret suppressed thoughts hidden deep in his heart and all. At least then the glaring sexual violence gag wouldn't have been gross and boring.
In fact, while I'm grossed out by all the sexualized violence in games, the thing that really offends me is how safe and dull it all is. "Mimicking fetish porn" isn't actually a clever aesthetic. If you want to lay claim to shocking and unsettling, go Bataille or go home. I mean, I still won't like it, but I'll scoff more quietly. |
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sarsamis
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:04 pm |
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I must admit some of the image memes I've seen come out of this really amuse me:
I know who Zoe Quinn, Matt Lees, and Anita Sarkeesian are, but who's the woman furthest to the right? |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:21 pm |
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| sarsamis wrote: |
I must admit some of the image memes I've seen come out of this really amuse me:
I know who Zoe Quinn, Matt Lees, and Anita Sarkeesian are, but who's the woman furthest to the right? |
Leigh Alexander? It's hard to tell, but that's my best guess given her prominence.
Also "Cultural Marxist Academia" is a pretty good penultimate end-point for cultural paranoia.
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Ni Go Zero Ichi
Joined: 10 Sep 2011
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tiburon
Joined: 26 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:29 pm |
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| misadventurous wrote: |
| goobergate. |
i like it
re: bayonetta - I think there are strong arguments to be made on both sides of the thing. It's obvious to me this isn't as black and white as, say, dead or alive. she is unequivocally the hero* of the story, which is IMO a big deal. So it's really off-base and anti-critical** to brand the work as a whole as 'a sexist work'. I think it's probable that there are girls out there who see Bayo as a positive role model, and a feminist role model at that, due to her overall role in the game. Not to say that certain scenes can't be 'problematic' or criticized, only to say that the analysis should not end there.
Also, authorial intent is at best a minor factor. Any work is ultimately in the eye of the beholder.
*You could say 'heroine' is grammatically correct, but coming from my background, I've just as often seen 'heroine' refer to the damsel-in-distress trope it's supposed to stand in direct opposition to. E.g. in Bollywood/Kollywood movies, the female love interest (who often has 0 agency in the plot) is referred to as the heroine.
** Anti-critical as in, anti-critical thinking. "Is this / is this not sexist" is a labeling argument that I don't think anyone really enjoys. Not saying anyone here is doing this! But the tenor of the discussion at large tends towards this.
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idle
QUAD DAMAGE!!!
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:37 pm |
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| Lick Meth wrote: |
| Your text betrays your attitude completely. It's not just the attempt to boil the scenario down to its most basic occurance, but it deliberately clouds any context, both of the clip and any existing examples it draws from. |
I only had to dumb the scenario down because the peanut gallery started snickering at my initial post without explaining where I messed up. Why would I address a context I don't see presented in the clip in question?
One character grabbing another by their entire head isn't uncommon in fiction when there's that sort of radical difference in size/strength between the two of them. Just off the top of my head, one of the Regenerator's attacks in RE4 involves the same kind of thing. I didn't fail to acknowledge the Bayonetta example as a gendered grab to be disingenuous; that's just not what I saw presented it in it. It isn't a gendered grab, it's an impossible grab. |
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Ni Go Zero Ichi
Joined: 10 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:40 pm |
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Are people genuinely offended by Dead or Alive anymore? Nobody will argue that it's a pro-feminist game series, but considering how comically upfront it is about its own motives I always considered it one of the more innocuous examples of boobage in gaming.
I do remember that brief period during which Yosuke Hayashi talked about maybe wanting to take DOA5 in a more dignified direction, only to be shouted down by hysterical fans on both sides of the pacific until he almost immediately caved in and released bikini costumes DLC. Pretty lulzy
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Felix
unofficial repository
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: vancouver
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:21 pm |
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| eh, I mean, Team Ninja stuff is pretty much pure gazey cheesecake, so while it's not as smart as Bayonetta or Saints Row (as far as smart cheesecake goes, that is) it's also not much more than a superficial example |
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tiburon
Joined: 26 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:51 pm |
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My mind went a bit blank for examples of gratuitous sexism. I couldn't remember any of the Anita examples funny enough. So yeah, insert your own bugbear I guess.
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Rud31
forum ruler of Iraq
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: SanAnTex
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Talbain
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:42 pm |
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| Texican Rude wrote: |
| Corpse Party. But I have a giant raging hatred of that game. Most examples of gratiuitous sexism is going to be from Japanese otaku games that most of you don't touch. |
Aside from adult visual novel stuff, what defines an otaku game?
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Ni Go Zero Ichi
Joined: 10 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:16 am |
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I think Criminal Girls is probably the deepest non-porn level of weeb-misogyny hell
(Though in total fairness I haven't actually played it... nor do I want to)
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:20 am |
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| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
Leigh Alexander?
I like how they all have "le happy merchant" hands. Subtle. |
yeah because so many "critical theorist social justice warriors" are making so much money on this, compared to, oh, i dunno, large scale game developers. |
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mauve
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:58 am |
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the entire premises of the personal attacks are pretty much deranged to begin with.
nobody ever bothers to check to hear if anything they hear is true or if the people in question are actually doing the things they're said to have done.
reading comprehension is not really their strong point here and it's not intended to be, i think.
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Brooks
Joined: 08 Apr 2007
Location: peak caucasity
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:00 am |
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That pyramid made me laugh so fast and hard my neck now hurts
Speaking of fetish and form here's Allen Jones
Submitted without comment beyond strong suspicion that Kamiya/Platinum are not Allen Jones |
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schroeder
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Location: Interior of mind n+1
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:47 am |
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| but man would they like to be. |
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Ni Go Zero Ichi
Joined: 10 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:59 pm |
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| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
Leigh Alexander?
I like how they all have "le happy merchant" hands. Subtle. |
yeah because so many "critical theorist social justice warriors" are making so much money on this, compared to, oh, i dunno, large scale game developers. |
When you go deep enough into 4chan insanity, the "happy merchant" meme doesn't necessarily connote money-making specifically but rather blanket association with "the Jews", who as we all know are responsible for spreading liberal values such as those espoused by The SJWs as part of their plot to emasculate western civilization
(I'm not sure if you think I was unironically praising that image)
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miaou
Joined: 12 Dec 2012
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schroeder
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Location: Interior of mind n+1
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:53 am |
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| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
Leigh Alexander?
I like how they all have "le happy merchant" hands. Subtle. |
yeah because so many "critical theorist social justice warriors" are making so much money on this, compared to, oh, i dunno, large scale game developers. |
When you go deep enough into 4chan insanity, the "happy merchant" meme doesn't necessarily connote money-making specifically but rather blanket association with "the Jews", who as we all know are responsible for spreading liberal values such as those espoused by The SJWs as part of their plot to emasculate western civilization |
For instance. |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:18 am |
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<3 u kcgreenn
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:01 am |
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| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
Leigh Alexander?
I like how they all have "le happy merchant" hands. Subtle. |
yeah because so many "critical theorist social justice warriors" are making so much money on this, compared to, oh, i dunno, large scale game developers. |
When you go deep enough into 4chan insanity, the "happy merchant" meme doesn't necessarily connote money-making specifically but rather blanket association with "the Jews", who as we all know are responsible for spreading liberal values such as those espoused by The SJWs as part of their plot to emasculate western civilization
(I'm not sure if you think I was unironically praising that image) |
oh yeah no, i got that, and don't worry, your irony/sarcasm/whatever was clear. |
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:01 am |
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| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
Leigh Alexander?
I like how they all have "le happy merchant" hands. Subtle. |
yeah because so many "critical theorist social justice warriors" are making so much money on this, compared to, oh, i dunno, large scale game developers. |
When you go deep enough into 4chan insanity, the "happy merchant" meme doesn't necessarily connote money-making specifically but rather blanket association with "the Jews", who as we all know are responsible for spreading liberal values such as those espoused by The SJWs as part of their plot to emasculate western civilization
(I'm not sure if you think I was unironically praising that image) |
oh yeah no, i got that, and don't worry, your irony/sarcasm/whatever was clear. |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:55 pm |
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Looking into primary and secondary jingoism from GG led to a Twitter search for Cultural Marxism. After two degrees in liberal arts humanities disciplines, it's the first time I've heard that term outside of a casual mention during a review of propaganda in the Third Reich. I knew that GG had a lot of blinders on regarding the political quality of their own politics, but holy god.
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:15 pm |
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| Yeah, that is one of those phrases that the few times I have heard/read it, it's a good indicator to just close up shop and move along. |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:29 pm |
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| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| Yeah, that is one of those phrases that the few times I have heard/read it, it's a good indicator to just close up shop and move along. |
Exactly. Along these overlapping lines, I'm not too surprised that the Sarkeesian drawing playing off of anti-Semitic holocaust propaganda appears to have been picked up by white nationalist/supremacist groups to express their ... concerns. If anything, it shows exactly the kind of circulation that the image has and, as well, who it appeals to outside of GG as a general cluster of ideas coincident with other ideas outside its immediate and apparent folds.
https://twitter.com/TaxEnuffAlready/status/427244967140937728
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sarsamis
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:22 pm |
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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Ymer
Joined: 05 Oct 2009
Location: PAL region
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:50 pm |
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| Adilegian wrote: |
| Looking into primary and secondary jingoism from GG led to a Twitter search for Cultural Marxism. After two degrees in liberal arts humanities disciplines, it's the first time I've heard that term outside of a casual mention during a review of propaganda in the Third Reich. |
Well duh!
| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
| "the Jews", who as we all know are responsible for spreading liberal values such as those espoused by The SJWs as part of their plot to emasculate western civilization |
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:04 pm |
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| Ymer wrote: |
| Adilegian wrote: |
| Looking into primary and secondary jingoism from GG led to a Twitter search for Cultural Marxism. After two degrees in liberal arts humanities disciplines, it's the first time I've heard that term outside of a casual mention during a review of propaganda in the Third Reich. |
Well duh!
| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
| "the Jews", who as we all know are responsible for spreading liberal values such as those espoused by The SJWs as part of their plot to emasculate western civilization |
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Yep! I just didn't expect this observation to be reinforced so immediately after my initial Twitter search for #CulturalMarxism.
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evnvnv
hapax legomenon
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: the los angeles
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:28 pm |
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| Adilegian wrote: |
| Ymer wrote: |
| Adilegian wrote: |
| Looking into primary and secondary jingoism from GG led to a Twitter search for Cultural Marxism. After two degrees in liberal arts humanities disciplines, it's the first time I've heard that term outside of a casual mention during a review of propaganda in the Third Reich. |
Well duh!
| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
| "the Jews", who as we all know are responsible for spreading liberal values such as those espoused by The SJWs as part of their plot to emasculate western civilization |
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Yep! I just didn't expect this observation to be reinforced so immediately after my initial Twitter search for #CulturalMarxism. |
I saw a talk by an otherwise decent translator of Chinese poetry who stopped just short of rambling off in this direction for absolutely no reason. The "theory wars" live on in the dusty corners of the halls of academia.
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Adilegian
Rogue Scholar
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Q*Bert Killscreen Nightmare
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:50 pm |
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| evnvnv wrote: |
| Adilegian wrote: |
| Ymer wrote: |
| Adilegian wrote: |
| Looking into primary and secondary jingoism from GG led to a Twitter search for Cultural Marxism. After two degrees in liberal arts humanities disciplines, it's the first time I've heard that term outside of a casual mention during a review of propaganda in the Third Reich. |
Well duh!
| Ni Go Zero Ichi wrote: |
| "the Jews", who as we all know are responsible for spreading liberal values such as those espoused by The SJWs as part of their plot to emasculate western civilization |
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Yep! I just didn't expect this observation to be reinforced so immediately after my initial Twitter search for #CulturalMarxism. |
I saw a talk by an otherwise decent translator of Chinese poetry who stopped just short of rambling off in this direction for absolutely no reason. The "theory wars" live on in the dusty corners of the halls of academia. |
Seems like the right place and time for R Kelly!
http://www.theonion.com/articles/villainous-syllabus,32492/
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