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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:04 am |
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| I think the stances are less "ANITA IS GREAT" and "ANITA IS TERRIBLE" and more "Anita's points are generally pretty cogent" and "ANITA IS [A] TERRIBLE [FEMINAZI RUINING VIDEOGAMES]." Earnest people (including game developers who have worked on games she mentions!) seem to have no problem engaging her ideas, while frothing monsters seem to prefer to launch assaults (both literal and figurative) on her person. Making it about Anita herself is already choosing to miss the point of her project. |
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:07 am |
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| I'm sure that if Jade Raymond were doing this series there would be absolutely no misogynist blowback and all of these dudes would be happy hearing about sexism in their videogames from an "insider." |
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:27 pm |
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| i admit i can't tell if the evopsych biotruth stuff is sarcastic or serious, so now it's my turn to make the ! sound |
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:20 am |
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| But she clearly has an eager audience - her Kickstarter was funded quickly and over-fully. There are more inclusive, diverse, feminist actors and goings-on in games now than maybe ever before. We don't have to wait for permission from Internet Dudes on Reddit or 4chan or Youtube comments or wherever to make queer games or complain about sexism or promote varied casts. The fact that some backwards MRA-ass chuckleheads aren't ready, and are prone to kicking up misogynist shitfits, is not a reason for people who want to have this conversation not to have this conversation. |
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:32 pm |
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| John Mc. wrote: |
| Indeed! I find it disappointing, though, that there is castigation aimed at those who do agree with the message but have some qualms about the presentation. The level of defendedness I feel when I read this stuff, as someone who agrees, makes me realize where some of the reactive anger about the Internet may be sourced. That's my question in all this! Where is the rage fomenting? It seems a little too simple that this is all from the recitation of some facts that most gamers could honestly care less about (alas!). This could be easily ignored by those who didn't realize the use of female stereotypes was so prevalent in gaming, because when it is so obvious what would the videos change? This is striking some kind of chord, and I can't really see what it is! I like Brooks' comment, speaking of this Ella Guro and her consideration that there is more to gamer rage than gender is a line I seem to be following too. I mean why figuratively draw the line in the sand here? |
What "castigation" are you talking about? You're free to try to address Sarkeesian's points, but you haven't - you're solely engaged in metacommentary. And then people respond to your posts on the metacommentary, and then you ask why people are talking about the metacommentary when what really needs to be talked about are the Real Issues. That's silly!
I think it's pretty naive to assume there has to be more than misogyny and privilege driving the misogynist and privleged shitposting and harassment. Maybe that's a blind spot because of your particular experiences? Lots of women and other groups who have been traditionally excluded from gaming and gaming culture (such as it is) have come forward and said that yeah, this is the kind of thing that happens to us all the time. This is not some New Curious Thing To Be Studied - this is just familiar hate turned up to 11 because of a weird confluence of events (Zoe's ex's gross revenge porn campaign combined with a new Tropes vs. Women combined with the recent anti-"SJW" cirlejerk). If you look at any other TvW video release you see mini versions of this kind of fuckery. If you look at any other women-in-games-event you see mini versions of this kind of fuckery. If you play videogames or write about videogames or even forum post about videogames as a woman/trans person/disabled person/etc. you see mini versions of this kind of fuckery personally tailored to you. You don't have to approach this blind, like a hyper-rational STEM alien treating Earth as a lab - you can and should listen to the people who are saying that this is not new and that they understand it because they deal with it a lot.
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| That comes back to the affect being slinged back and forth. envenv, my comment was actually that this is deeper than women in games, and that with it being closer to the surface and perhaps easier to examine. There is nothing there to insinuate that I am missing the proverbial forest for the trees; diabetes is a deep and systemic problem (to borrow Brooks' metaphor), but one can't ignore the festering, gangernous leg it has destroyed and left to rot. You have to cut that leg off, and fix the more apparent issue before you can work on the deeper issue. Or, you can work on both at the same time. You can't ignore the systemic issue in all this, though, as you still have another leg (representations of minorities, LGBT, etc). Naturally, diabetes can kill you from complications; that's in my mind, too. Your cleaving of my statement and implying that shame should be associated with "demeaning and trivializing" the issue is an ad hominem attack. You are angry about this, but are lashing out at your supporters or those living in a slight shade of gray. I worry about that lockstep, us-or-them, almost dogmatic kind of thinking, and fear it is one of the weaknesses of a philosophy-based approach! |
You give the #gamergate dudes way too much credit, and you're acting like sexism and bigotry and xenophobia and right-wing extremism aren't the root problems of this stuff. They clearly are. You can't get deeper than that without getting hand-wavey and philosophical about the darkness in the heart of humankind or something, which is a diversion tactic of people who clearly don't want to address the actual problems. There is no need to abstract this, and doing so is not only useless but actively counterproductive on top of being indistinguishable from the #gamergate output.
Like, if I told you that the DMV was shitty to me because I'm trans, and your response was not to empathize with me but to want to get analytic about the "root" cause of their bad behavior because condemning transphobia is treating a "symptom," I would probably just stop talking to you!
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| diplo! You are right that I have not commented on my concerns, though the last sentence should give some insight. Of course, it may be entirely invalid; I appreciate something of a philosophy/psychology fight on the Internet that just goes round and round, and such thoughts may be of little value when, from a philosophical aspect, her reasoning quite sound! And, just to reiterate some prior points, there is no comparison between death threats and general consternation from people on the Internet; there is no excuse for violence, but receiving death threats doesn't mean you are free to assail third parties or mild critics. Not everyone who disagrees with you wants you dead, and criticism doesn't imply support for such nonsense! One should be angry, and likely afraid, but we have police for a reason; for those so threatened, the response to each sentiment is measured by orders of magnitude. Once again, this seems like a distraction, perhaps because I do not universally agree. There is an implication that I am not a supporter and a part of the problem, which angers me a little. I imagine this wrote large, and I start to see where some of the anger arises from! |
I still haven't seen the "assailing" you're talking about. Do you mean, like, articles like Leigh Alexander's calling #gamergate dudes entitled manchildren or whatever? It's bizarre to focus on her bitter reaction to her harassment over, you know, her harassment. That seems unfair and vastly disproportionate.
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| Like, why do I feel so defensive right now? I didn't do anything! I think she's right! The subtle aggression by those who fully support Anita (I fear) may be alienating those who live even a toe into the gray, only codifying the us-and-them dyad that is of little use. It gives those who don't want to be introspective or change a proverbial out, allowing them to read the friction from the correct group as a means to escape or find contempt. The means, that being philosophy, always have the out of "being someone's opinion," even if that isn't the case at all (like this one). The idea should be to gain as many supporters as possible, and all I see are both sides building walls with those giant spike things on the ground in front of them. |
I continue not to see this "subtle aggression" on the part of Anita's "camp," and as was said above it sounds super concern-troll-y to fret about "alienating" dudes, when women are literally being driven out of their homes. If you want to be the one providing nuanced and compassionate care to those guys "who live even a toe into the grey," you should do that! But sitting on the sidelines tut-tutting people in the trenches who are making sincere efforts to move the community forward without actually doing anything yourself is the worst kind of armchair quarterbacking. Anita is out there churning out basic feminism 101 videos that people are using in their classrooms and that devs have responded to positively. Some studios, like Bungie, have even brought Anita in to talk to them about representation! Feminist indie devs and journos are making and covering games with an awareness of social justice. They get tons of vile shit in response, and then you criticize them for not being gentle enough - for driving people away from their cause - in how they handle this stress and the doxxing and the hacking and the rape threats.
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And then what happens? Surgeons argue with internists, neither getting anywhere. Leg situation doesn't get fixed. Illness worsens, patient dies.
I'm rather fond of the patient! I want it to get better! |
Are feminists the surgeons and misogynists the internists? Because if the patient is a woman, I'm pretty sure her death is the misogynists' fault? Or feminists are killing the games industry with their nagging? Or something? This metaphor is crap. |
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:23 am |
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| John Mc. wrote: |
| I do not follow the first paragraph. I do not know what metacommentary is. Neither does my spell check! |
By metacommentary I meant commenting about people commenting about Sarkeesian's points, instead of commenting about Sarkeesian's points. I didn't make the term up, but I am not surprised spell check doesn't approve.
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Following from there, "misogyny" as a term seems to be utilized liberally. To my understanding, it is literally a hatred of women. Perhaps it is the perspective of my own experience, but "hatred" as a mindset requires not only dislike but a rageful mindset. It is dedicated anger, and that does not happen as often as one might think. I work with a troubled, ignored and marginalized population (the mentally ill), and even within this true hatred is something of an outlier for my experience. Is it really the case that everyone who is getting incensed by this truly hates women? Is it the thought that is hateful, then? There is a not uncomplicated sum of complexes I would have to see to find a true hatred of a gender, and I worry that the use of the term so much in the last few weeks is deluding the potency that such a term should carry. That's not to say it does not exist. I just don't think it's everyone else, either in identity or thought.
So perhaps it is naive to assume that it is little more than misogyny, as true hatred is quite a bit of emotional work. I can't see many in the gaming community as feeling so strongly. As someone who has seen true hatred, and you'll feel it when you find it, I feel my perception may be perhaps more conservative in using the term. |
Semantic nitpicking about misogyny is as pointless as semantic nitpicking about homophobia ("but I'm not SCARED of the gays: CHECKMATE"). If the word makes your head explode use a Greasemonkey script to replace it with "sexism" or something lower-grade that you're more comfortable with. I think my meaning was clear, though, and stands.
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| I agree that this isn't anything new! I'm just wondering why everyone is so vocal all of the sudden. Is this perhaps a reckoning of sorts? Both sides seem firmly seated on their respective high horses. You are right that I don't know what it's like to be a woman or LGBT, nor would I ever presume to. I can stand with you against such bigotry, but not from the same position. Some of the tension perhaps is that you want me to, but I can't for those very reasons. Should I apologize for that? I feel that groups me with them, which is not a comfortable place for me. |
You can be grouped with us if you want, which should naturally be a much more comfortable place! Just trust us when we're like, hey, this thing that walks like bigotry and entitlement and talks like bigotry and entitlement - we recognize this: it's bigotry and entitlement. Because to those of us used to bigotry and entitlement, it's sort of amusing to see someone come across it and innocently wonder what on earth it could possibly be while they break out the science equipment to investigate.
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I am quite an emotional person; one has to be to find success in my line of work. I seek understanding and acceptance of my feelings, which is not easy or swift. I would be inclined to say that I am more in touch with my emotions than 90% of other people due to my training (and the dark arts so taught), so I can say that when I do see anger and summarily am concerned about judgement, I speak with personal and professional experience.
You will note that I did not mention GamerGate, as I'm not honestly sure what the hell is going on there. They're like the Tea Party of the gaming community; angry about... something! Uh... corruption! Sex! Or something! It's bad comedy at best, and not constructive to our discussion here. Neither did I mention this Zoe stuff, as the corruption charges were trumped up in the least, and so not news. The infidelity was a non-story, and the grasp that many GamerGate folks have taken seems only to weaken their position. The people who are making threats or thoroughly invested in the GamerGate position are not the intended target for Anita's concerns anyway; they do not wish to listen.
So why do I keep writing about this? Well, I see parallels between both positions, and so long as fury drives both (righteous or no), then the other side will see only antagonism. Please don't try to say I'm equating the two; I can only clarify that I'm not so many times! The goal here is to win hearts and minds, and that is difficult to do with a rageful affect. That affect can be contagious, but only insofar as it foments similar, more instinctual sensations. Many may join in righteous indignation, or in reactive anxiety find outlet in the shared fear that drives this anger against women. We must point out issues and embolden gamers as the means to fix it; it is very hard to fix anything when one is acting angrily. That isn't to say that people should not be angry! You can't stop feelings, and it would be silly to ask one to. But that energy can be diverted to great aims, and make for real change. Sitting around and speaking of the misogyny that is everywhere is every bit the armchair quarterbacking of which I am so accused. There's no point in weakening their argument because they don't really have one. Why not instead focus on strengthening ours? |
I'd like to highlight this example from RPS of calm, reasoned engagement. It's a case study in how much work, patience, and time it can require to do perfect one-on-one education. It's not surprising that the person who had the energy for that right now is a "hetero white male" (his words). I think that this interaction is good to keep in mind any time you feel inclined to make a point about how a victim reacting to harassment should respond in terms of what would be best for the education of misled individuals and/or the overall "good" of a larger movement. Just look at the effort you'd be asking of someone undergoing constant violent threats and internet attacks from hundreds of people a day - it's not a reasonable expectation.
Furthermore, Anita's videos are basic, 101 level stuff. They are gentle and approachable. She's been driven out of her home for working on the exact kind of education you propose.
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For example, I am doing some cursory exploration to see what research has been done in media psychology on the influence of media on gender attitudes. I've already done some extensive reading on gaming, cognitions and behaviors, but not quite this in particular. Will the results be shocking? No. However, evidence-based and peer-reviewed data may be better accepted by the more concrete-minded, and makes the entire argument less susceptible to subjectivity fallacies. Less susceptible, but not entirely invulnerable; we still have an evolution "debate" after all.
None of will matter if my input is dismissed outright because I feel the argument has some holes that need patching (researched evidence being the big one; it's out there I'm sure of it!).
The last paragraph is telling; "feminists" and "misogynists." "Us" and "them." The more I note this subtext the more I worry that no true scotsman can have a toe wading in a little gray. I don't mean to derail the context; it is the word choice I find most telling. |
Your framing specifically set up the two "sides" and I was working within it. There are not actually two equal sides, the war between which is causing the destruction of your patient/videogames/the world. Videogames are expanding, and have been for a while. There is an angry right-wing contingent trying to drag them back. There aren't two doctors fighting, there is a doctor trying to fix the leg and gangrene/diabetes/whatever trying to kill the leg.
And seriously, why are you still more concerned with my phrasing*, or anyone's phrasing, or any bit of this metacommentary (aaaa), rather than the men literally driving women out of their homes? If you're going to wring your hands about anything, don't wring your hands about how we're talking about it - wring your hands about what a festering hole the gaming community has been, and what you want to contribute towards fixing it.
*(My phrasing is not uniquely telling, or powerful, or insightful, or anything. Analyzing my phrasing is not going to tell you anything about the nature of what's going on. Analyzing my phrasing is not a stand-in for analyzing the problem. Analyzing my phrasing isn't a shortcut for somehow cutting the the heart of the matter.)
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| I worry that is what this really is becoming and as someone who has seen the problem for some time, I want to change as many minds as possible. I want "us" to be "most everyone." Will that actually happen? No. But the rational voice will win more minds on the basis of facts, and more hearts on the basis of inclusion, something women and minorities in gaming and now fighting for more vocally. It doesn't matter who is the surgeon and who is the internist; the patient is still dying. I want him or her to live. |
TvW is very methodical and rational, and firmly rooted in basic feminist criticisms from other media. If you have a better approach than Anita Sarkeesian, put it into practice!
I'm continuing to engage with you because we have met in person and I know you're sincere, but I will admit this is a little frustrating! |
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:49 pm |
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I that's all really good, although I feel like you perhaps provide more nuance to the "early MRA" stuff than they themselves have generated or would defend. Your description of How This Happened seems very insightful, but I'd generally suggest that this is less an MRA operation (even in the wide sense you set up ahead of time - I think your specific characterization winds up letting a lot of cultural momentum off the hook and slightly obfuscates the breadth of the problem) and more the expression and culmination of general sexism/conservatism (as in resistance to change)/fear of the Other.
Those are both really fantastic posts, though I didn't mean to set myself up as any kind of arbiter or involved actor in terms of this specific situation.
Last edited by Corinth on Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:21 pm |
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:06 pm |
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| diplo wrote: |
| Takashi wrote: |
| http://www.objectivegamereviews.com/ |
Is this a really elaborate joke? |
It's a satire site run by people from the Idle Thumbs forums, apparently. |
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:27 pm |
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| Well, I mean, my interest in this is the abject horror of a feminist watching the misogynist/xenophobic froth machinery at work - it usually isn't this transparent. I give it the time of day only in the sense that talking about it with other feminists makes me feel a little less ill about the world I live in. Like, it's nice to reassure yourself that while outside it's dangerous, inside you've got hot tea and cool people to talk with about how to start to make a dent. |
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Corinth
thatbox
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:05 pm |
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| I just don't see how you make the leap from "I do not want to play Thomas Was Alone" to A) "The Thomas Was Alone developer is lazy and/or sucks" and B) "The existence of Thomas Was Alone is harming me by not catering to my tastes." Thomas Was Alone has absolutely no impact on what Bungie or Respawn or Activision or Microsoft or Ubisoft are doing. I also think it's really shortsighted to try to analyze indie games from a purely capitalist market perspective. Sure, that works for the AAA titles and large corporations, but a large portion of the small, indie, not-for-you scene right now is driven simply by creativity and a desire to share. And if you were to attach an economic perspective to that sphere, it would more likely be feminism-informed Marxism, socialism or simply arts patronage. You can go play Depression Quest and Dys4ia for free, right now! |
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:15 am |
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| Baseballkappe wrote: |
| Corinth wrote: |
| And if you were to attach an economic perspective to that sphere, it would more likely be feminism-informed Marxism, socialism or simply arts patronage. You can go play Depression Quest and Dys4ia for free, right now! |
I really don't think I can agree with that, Corinth :<
I'm not seeing it. I see a lot of self-employment tho.
Not that I disagree with your main point, but this struck me as a little politically naive :<
I feel bad about stuff sorry. |
That's fair! But at the very least I think it must be conceded that the sort of socially conscious games attracting the hate and fear of gamergaters aren't intended to participate in the marketplace in the same way that Destiny is. |
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:58 am |
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| Like, the goal of Depression Quest is clearly not trading entertainment for money. It's aimed at creating social good that's essentially outside of the market, which is why I found that approach to be sort of out of place here. |
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Corinth
thatbox
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:56 pm |
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| just fyi i am going to do my best to prune the crap out of the last few pages. please do not use this thread to share your generic negative opinions about feminism or re-fight weird battles about sweeping ideologies. feel free to keep talking about the problematic depictions of women in videogames, though! |
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:18 pm |
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| Stop the back-and-forth stuff relating to the last couple of pages. Step away from the thread for a bit if you need to. |
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:11 pm |
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| We had a fairly productive 8.5 pages of talking, though. Any further discussion in here should follow that example. |
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:55 pm |
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| Yeah, a lot of people feel that way because of the how society has loudly established and valued its Gender Norm Bullshit. Those videos are a pretty clear illustration of how we're okay with women performing "masculinity" (because masculinity is strong and active, so of course women would want to be like men!), but not okay with men performing "femininity" (because femininity is weak and passive, so men should never want to be like women!). It's hard work to dig out of the cultural brainwashing we all get about this stuff, but I think this tenet is kind of the keystone that holds up most systemic sexism (and homophobia and transphobia) - everything from the devaluing of "feminine" work/professions to the way gendered insults capitalize on this bunk hierarchy ("throw like a girl," etc.) to "acceptable" clothing choices. |
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:25 pm |
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| Yep! That's the idea! |
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:50 pm |
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| TMFK wrote: |
| Is it missing the point of this thread to be discussing general gender construction stuff or is it good that we're moving past the rock bottom into a post-apocalypse with little blooming hope flowers? |
These hope flowers smell great, and these concepts (especially your description of masculinity-as-the-norm) fit right in with the points Anita has been making about videogames!
Brooks, yeah. It's crazy how much this can weigh people down and channel their lives through proscribed corridors. Blowing the maze open and letting people go where they feel like going is pretty neat to think about. |
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:05 am |
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I didn't watch the videos and just ran with Brooks's reaction to them, but there definitely are multiple problems and multiple ways to address Gender Norm Bullshit, as you pointed out. The video sounds like it doesn't even provide a shallow take on the concept of femininity and just jumps right into sexist stereotypes instead, which is itself a demonstration of the relative cultural positions of masculinity and feminity.
I do kind of have an automatic weird reaction to the "we should not support throwing poorly" thing, though. Not everyone wants or needs to throw well, and we run the risk of accidentally tapping into mainline patriarchal attitudes when our first response to seeing a woman throwing poorly is saying "she needs to learn to throw better." It can sometimes be a pretty thin line between earnest support and patriarchal condescension, especially if we aren't first asking that individual person what she wants and needs. We as a society certainly can get along with some people being content to throw poorly, and we need to make sure we don't artificially inflate the importance of throwing well just to support our existing biases. (I'm not saying you're doing this, I'm just trying to shoehorn big ideas into a tiny metaphor.) The middle part of your fix is the important bit, to me: "We should support the detachment of 'being bad at throwing' from 'being a girl.'" |
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Corinth
thatbox
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:45 pm |
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| I don't think that "censorship" is an appropriate term either, if you're meaning to talk specifically about Anita's agenda. |
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