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Football Manager: The Best of Games, the Worst of Games
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scratchmonkey
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Joined: 21 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:20 pm    Post subject: Football Manager: The Best of Games, the Worst of Games    Reply with quote

As anybody who has viewed time spent on games in my Steam profile could tell you, I have a serious problem, and that problem is Football Manager. Initially, it had to be imported from Europe, a somewhat-difficult process without today's specialty import websites and my trials in this area were only relieved by a co-worker who had a European contact who would buy copies of the game and FedEx them to us. For a while, Sports Interactive made an America-only version of the game called Worldwide Soccer Manager; however, it was treated as the red-headed stepchild and usually involved a certain amount of finagling to get to work properly and in the end, it was easier to still import. While many in Europe and elsewhere were upset that Football Manager eventually required Steam for installation, having our addiction available on-demand was a great boon for American players.

As it turns out, FM is a great game for those of us with small children. It can be easily played with only one arm available, which means that we can cradle infants and still play. Better yet, it doesn't require any sort of reaction time, bar the reflexes necessary to pause the game mid-match in order to make tactical changes. You can get up and leave the game running to go deal with spills, diaper changes or midnight terrors safely, which is, in all honesty, the main reason why my Steam hours played are so horribly bloated, as it's really just recording how many hours I've had the game loaded, not how often I've actually been playing.

Perhaps at this point I should bother to actually explain what the game is for anybody curious enough to have read this far. Football Manager is, unsurprisingly, a game where you play the manager of a team that plays the sport of football (soccer to Americans, "kickdaball" to my two-year-old niece). When you load up the game, you're prompted to create your virtual identity, with name, birthdate, nationality, optional photo and reputation level (starts off at "Sunday League footballer" and goes up to "Recognized International" -- this is here to represent that it's easier to get a job managing if you were a famous player beforehand). You then choose how many leagues that you want to play with -- there are 117 playable leagues in the game (7 of which are English*) and even choosing a small amount of them will create a player database with tens of thousands of players (you can vary the size of the database, more players is more realistic and means slower game processing). You then choose a team from the leagues that you've chosen, or you can start unemployed, which means that you'll sit around clicking Continue a lot until a team sacks (fires) its manager and decides to give a chance to interview for the position**.

Once you've actually created your persona and picked a team, you are dumped into the FM interface and expected to figure which of a roughly billion different menus and screens are going to be the most important to turn your team into a rough, mean, football-killin' machine.

* - Football leagues generally (although not in all cases) have a similar structure in that each country has a series of leagues that are connected to each other by a system of promotion/relegation. So if you finish at the bottom of the top league, you are relegated -- sent next season to play in the league below that one, while the teams that placed at the top of that division are promoted -- brought up to the league above. This is how England has 7 leagues -- The Premier League, The Championship, League 1, League 2, Conference National, then the Conference North and Conference South -- the final two leagues are regional, so the league system bifurcates at that level, with two leagues being equal rungs on the ladder. Please note the ludicrous naming convention ('League 1' used to be the name for the top division in England -- it is now the third division, please drive through) and for further shits and giggles, the actual "English League" only comprises the Championship and Leagues 1 and 2 -- the Premier League is actually its own individually administrated entity and below League 2 is "non-league" and has its own administrative groups.

** - Interviews are something added in the most recent edition of the game, previously you were just offered the job, now you have to do a fairly piecemeal series of dialogue choices (not even trees, really) about whether your financial expectations line up with the board/owner (the group of people who ultimately run the team) and whether there are any philosophies that you may agree/disagree with -- these have to do with either an expecting play style or team-building methodologies.
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scratchmonkey
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Joined: 21 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:05 pm        Reply with quote

Why Football Manager -- The Stories

If pressed to come up with my favorite games, two that are right at the top are Dwarf Fortress and Football Manager. They're both overly-complicated pieces of software that are designed to produce verisimilitude. They both make me happy in a similar way, by allowing me a certain amount of control over something that I can turn into a story, with success (I managed to build a windfarm; My latest signing is on a scoring streak) and failure (I did not build traps/train troops in time and now goblins have invaded; I bought temperamental Eastern European defenders who failed to gel with my squad and now I'm going to be relegated) and larger and smaller arcs of these successes and failures. Both games are about making history and recognizing that failures and defeats are just as interesting as victories (aside from the mechanical aspect of needing to understand the former in order to achieve the latter).

Most Football Manager stories are boring because the majority of the people who play the game are frustrated fans who want to use the game to assuage the feelings that are naturally associated with being a fan -- lack of control being the primary one. Most of them would boil down to "I took control of Chelsea* and bought all the players that I know are great or will be great in two years and I won all the trophies." I don't doubt that there's something cathartic to this; it doesn't really make for a narrative that's interesting on any level except for the person who creates it.

If you want to read a compelling story about Football Manager, you can't really do better than: Run of Play - Pro Vercelli. Run of Play was an essay-style blog about football written/curated by Brian Phillips, who wrote the above series of posts about managing fallen giant Pro Vercelli in Football Manager. Phillips was later headhunted to become one of the staff writers for Grantland, ESPN's entry into thoughtful long-form writing about sport and pop culture. His greatest piece there is probably his take on the Iditarod. That said, I always come back to his Pro Vercelli series. I'm not sure how many times I've read it. The real draw to the Pro Vercelli saga is that Phillips accurately captures the mania of trying to build a team and how important all the virtual people are to that process.

I like to compare FM to RPGs and the virtual people have a lot to do with that, to a degree that's beyond mechanical. Each player and staff member has a personality that comes through your interactions and one of the greatest things about the game is that this is largely unpredictable. Your scouts may tell you that this Slovenian teenage defensive midfielder has the potential to be one of the best in the world; what they don't tell you is that he has a propensity to pick up stupid yellow cards, that he scores from corners at a rate far higher than his stats would suggest and that he will have horrible personality clashes with other important members of your team. This is the joy of FM. If I'm playing Dragon Age and I recruit a certain elf to my party, I can go onto GameFAQs and find out all his little personality quirks and how they interact with the game's mechanics. In FM, I just don't know. I have to gamble and go off my intuition, I have to pore through what available information I do have and try and glean what the future might hold. I am, pretty frequently, wrong. And this is a great part of the dance too.

* - Insert any number of large, money-heavy clubs with legions of overseas fans here.
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tiburon



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:50 pm        Reply with quote

I wrote a crossover anime/FM post a while ago
http://slackiance.wordpress.com/2013/04/05/neo-venezias-official-football-club/

she is a cruel mistress and i have avoided her rule successfully for a year or two

it's the kind of game you can easily lose 8 or 9 hours to. a godsend for those of us who like managing options and dealing with complex systems. (keep in mind this is coming from a former EVE Online player.) the tie-in to real life sport makes it especially consuming. I lost countless hours in my youth to Franchise Mode in Madden, NFL 2k, NHL, etc - it's a kind of single-player experience that I think gets very short shrift among vidcon enthusiasts.
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CubaLibre
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:40 am        Reply with quote

I'd argue that Paradox games are really similar, and significantly more popular because of their linkage to the long-standing grand strategy community. Not that they are hugely popular either.
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boojiboy7
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:38 pm        Reply with quote

Actually, I am pretty sure the Football Manager games sell way better than paradox's stuff. yup, just looked it up, and they have sold 7 million copies of the game over it's life span (which holy shit what the hell?), which I am pretty sure beats the pants off of Paradox's stuff, saleswise. Not that that matters really.

You are right though that they are both descended from a similar line of thinking on simulations and strategy, though.
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CubaLibre
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:14 pm        Reply with quote

Weird. So much for short shrifts. Guess it goes to show the kind of people I online-hangout with to have thought Paradox was more popular.
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Mikey



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:20 pm        Reply with quote

Chiming in that a lot of the points you raised in the OP make me wonder if a "games for people with obligations" list thread might actually be useful.
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boojiboy7
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:35 pm        Reply with quote

CubaLibre wrote:
Weird. So much for short shrifts. Guess it goes to show the kind of people I online-hangout with to have thought Paradox was more popular.


Well, I think you are right that in certain groups, they totally are. And a lot of strategy/wargammers, though they would possibly be loathe to admit it, are more about the settings/aesthetics than the mechanics. The mechanics are obviously important (duh), but transpose the kind of intense strategy gaming to another setting, and the interest from that group fades. And there is nothing wrong with that. Heck, that is exactly true the other way, where in football/soccer is such a popular setting (outside of the US) that it carries Football Manager's sales to some extent.

Still love the Football Manager character in Sonic Kart 2.
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Deets



Joined: 05 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:10 pm        Reply with quote

scratchmonkey wrote:
If you want to read a compelling story about Football Manager, you can't really do better than: Run of Play - Pro Vercelli. Run of Play was an essay-style blog about football written/curated by Brian Phillips, who wrote the above series of posts about managing fallen giant Pro Vercelli in Football Manager. Phillips was later headhunted to become one of the staff writers for Grantland, ESPN's entry into thoughtful long-form writing about sport and pop culture. His greatest piece there is probably his take on the Iditarod. That said, I always come back to his Pro Vercelli series. I'm not sure how many times I've read it. The real draw to the Pro Vercelli saga is that Phillips accurately captures the mania of trying to build a team and how important all the virtual people are to that process.

Thanks for linking to these, really enjoying them!
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scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:31 pm        Reply with quote

tiburon wrote:
I wrote a crossover anime/FM post a while ago
http://slackiance.wordpress.com/2013/04/05/neo-venezias-official-football-club/
...
it's a kind of single-player experience that I think gets very short shrift among vidcon enthusiasts.


That is fantastic.

And yeah, the single-player franchise experience is one that's weirdly shunned whenever people talk about games even though I suspect that it's really popular -- my personal theory is that online mulitplayer, similar to FPS, has become so incredibly popular that it overwhelms the broader conversations that take place in the public space -- I worked on a very popular sports title and I know that because of what was popular about the game was perceived by the developers that online play received the lion's share of resources and the single-player franchise mode was given short shrift, even though there were a lot of developers who really wanted to do something great with it, since that was the primary way that they played the game.

CubaLibre wrote:
Guess it goes to show the kind of people I online-hangout with to have thought Paradox was more popular.


I'm a little astonished that you honestly thought this was the case. Madden is one of the most popular videogames of all time and we're talking about a sport where the World Cup dwarfs the popularity of the Super Bowl. Sure, FM is a drop in the bucket compared to FIFA and Pro Evo, still, the grognard niche-strategy football title is going to be immensely more popular than the grognard historical simulator games (although I think Crusader Kings 2 has sold extremely well).

And yes, FM has a lot in common with Paradox games. I mentioned it in the thread in the Axe about what three games you would take into solitary, they were: Dwarf Fortress, Football Manager and Crusader Kings 2. They all work off the same principles, which happen to be the ones that I apparently hold most dear when it comes to game mechanics.

Mikey wrote:
Chiming in that a lot of the points you raised in the OP make me wonder if a "games for people with obligations" list thread might actually be useful.


Not sure how many other people would find it interesting, I could sure post my findings in there, although I started two threads recently about the games that I play all the dang time, when I don't have obligations.

Deets wrote:
Thanks for linking to these, really enjoying them!


No problem! The Pro Vercelli series of posts are a really excellent way to get a feel for both how the game plays and why it's such an addictive piece of software, since Phillips does such a good job of evoking emotion. Although it's kind of too bad that he's never written anything else about FM and I'm not sure if he still plays FM; his more general sports pieces are probably better overall though as they let him stretch his legs as a writer -- the Iditarod piece is the best not only because of the writing, I think it's probably the best use of new-style web formatting that I've seen so far.
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CubaLibre
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:42 pm        Reply with quote

scratchmonkey wrote:
And yes, FM has a lot in common with Paradox games. I mentioned it in the thread in the Axe about what three games you would take into solitary, they were: Dwarf Fortress, Football Manager and Crusader Kings 2. They all work off the same principles, which happen to be the ones that I apparently hold most dear when it comes to game mechanics.

Funny that you name CK2 in particular, as opposed to the other Paradox series, because it's also about manipulating relationships - I imagine managing all your vassals and agents and their wives and concubines and whatnot is a lot like managing your team. A lot more like managing your team than the more abstracted, impersonal mechanics of say Europa Universalis.
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scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:04 pm        Reply with quote

I think that's what makes CK2 a lot more interesting than the other Paradox games, which are more about resource management (EU) or tactical/strategic positioning (Hearts of Iron) and yes, the two are somewhat similar because you're dealing with individuals rather than abstracted organizations, although as I hope to touch on in an upcoming post, FM is very much about strategic/tactical thinking, just on a much much smaller level than anything that Paradox has produced (to my knowledge).
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tiburon



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:37 pm        Reply with quote

also if you're an imageboard type person, 4chan has a general thread dedicated to FM discussion, called /trb/. various anon posters blog their campaigns. (the thread probably belongs on /vg/, but has found a home on the sports board.)
http://archive.moe/sp/search/subject/trb/

Definitely agreed with the game's narrative potential (much like DF, and also EVE). Haven't played Paradox games but I definitely should, once I feel less guilty about wasting time playing video games.
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Lick Meth



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:13 pm        Reply with quote

Wish I had more to say on FM, but I never got round to playing it for a myriad of weird reasons, e.g. totally unsure of managerial tactics in real world footie for most of my life, and never having much money for games in the olde days*. Not unrelated to who I support, but the only people I knew who played it locally were Everton fans, and due to the game's main coders being staunch Evertonians, they'd always insert code that made sure that LFC would always do badly, regardless of their players; this element has been relunctantly removed in more recent years, partly due to the fact that it's being used as a legit tool in the real world of footie management, and in very rare circumstances people have made careers as managers for lower league teams based upon their FM experience.

A good read is the book Football Manager Stole My Life which includes all sorts of stories about its good and bad relations with various people and (British) celebrities.

*prior to 2003, Sports Interactive made the Championship Manager series

**some of this post is probably a little inaccurate
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Victor



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:03 am        Reply with quote

I am not even a little bit interested in playing these types of games but I love reading stories about them.
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scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:18 am        Reply with quote

Lick Meth, if true, that's hilarious re: secret nerfs for Liverpool -- I'm on a site where people play FM a particular way (I'll get into it later) and I remember a couple of saves that hit the rocks rather badly once they'd moved to Liverpool, I have to wonder if that was the game messing with them now.

I'm mulling over what to talk about next -- I'm thinking that a brief overview of football tactics and how they translate to FM is the way to go.
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scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:10 pm        Reply with quote

There are two major learning curves/roadblocks associated with Football Manager that would prevent most people from picking up the game and playing it. The first of which is the UI -- now, it's a far cry from something like Dwarf Fortress; still, the sheer amount of menus and the "hidden knowledge" of many options that are not immediately obvious means that for anybody not steeped in a decade plus of Sports Interactive interface design is probably going to hit a point where they want to do something yet not know how to do it or even if it's possible, relatively quickly. The other is knowledge of football itself. Now, I should hasten to point out that you don't have to be a huge football fan to do well at the game; in fact, it should be pretty easy for somebody with almost no knowledge of the sport to do well at the game given a basic foundation of how FM works in terms of positions and formations. Which is the purpose of these next few posts!

Now, one of the biggest sub-sets of football analysis/culture in recent years has been all about Tactics. Tactics is, at the most basic level, what formation each team uses, i.e. where each player is expected to play and what role they perform. The Tactics Bible, such as it is, is Jonathan Wilson's Inverting the Pyramid, which is a historical examination of tactics worldwide. Also worthy of note is Zonal Marking, a site dedicated primarily to match analysis based on tactics -- the site is pretty dead right now as the author, Michael Cox, is now employed writing articles for major sports sites; however, the archives are extensive and very useful for anybody trying to understand how tactics differ from team to team and what difference they make in the actual game.

Before we get into actual formations, let's do a quick rundown of the basic positions, as FM understands them, there are three basic different positions denoted in Light Blue, with a further breakdown of sub-positions, in other colors:



Goalkeeper - Okay, there are four basic positions. The keeper doesn't really count as he's pretty much outside of the rules. He gets to use his hands (as long as he's inside the 18-yard box around the goal) and everybody uses one and only one, so tactically there's not a lot to play around with there.

DEFENDERS
Defenders are, appropriately enough, those players whose primary responsibility is to prevent the other team from scoring and are the furthest-back players in any formation.

Centerbacks - Those defenders that play in the center of the field. Generally responsible for "marking" (i.e. being close to and preventing from getting the ball/taking away the ball when they have it/closing down shots and passes) the opposing team's forwards. Tend to be tall, strong, not usually the most skilled players in terms of ball skills.

(Sweeper/Librero) - Technically there is another kind of centerback, who actually plays behind the other CBs; however, they're really an "advanced" position best left to the tactics hipsters with their giant beards and Dukla Prague away jerseys.

Fullbacks - Defenders who play on the sides of the defense, between the centerbacks and the touchline (the sides of the field). While they share many of the responsibilities of the centerbacks, they are also usually expected to get a bit more involved in the offense when the team has the ball, moving up the field in wide positions.

Wingbacks - Wingbacks are like fullbacks, only with a lot more offensive responsibilities -- wingbacks are usually played without any wide-players in front of them and can play either from a more defensive position like fullbacks or pushed forward into an intermediate position between fullbacks and wide midfielders.

MIDFIELDERS
Midfielders are the chaps who sit between the Defenders and the Forwards and whose remit necessarily involves the most variance in terms of duties/sub-categories.

Defensive Midfielders - These are players who sit deeper on the field, just in front of the defense and behind other midfielders. While the historical DM is a destroyer, whose job it is to try and break up the attack, usually via tackling and shutting down the opponent's attacking players, there are also more creative players who operate in the same area and even the all-out defensive midfielder has seen some changes.

Central Midfielders - Those who play in the absolute middle of the park, CMs can have a wide variety of duties, enough so that trying to give a general description is somewhat worthless -- the main thing to know is that players here will be expected to contribute significantly to both offense and defense

Wingers - The winger is a midfielder who plays on the sides of the midfield zone, effectively the midfield equivalent of the fullback/wingback. Wingers are usually players who are expected to attack, although in a variety of possible ways. Wingers can be deployed along the same "line" as CMs or in a more advanced position, more in line with the next position.

Attacking Midfielders - The inverse of the defensive midfielder, AMs operate in the space between their midfield and the defensive line. Players who play here are attacking by nature, although whether that means they're a distributor looking to play in teams or taking the attack to the opposing team personally varies according to philosophy.

FORWARDS
Forwards/Strikers are those that play furthest up the pitch and who usually bear the brunt of the responsibility in terms of scoring goals. Like the AM, there's a wide variety of possible play styles here.

Okay, so now that we know about positions, we can start to try and understand formations, which will be the next post.


Last edited by scratchmonkey on Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
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boojiboy7
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:17 pm        Reply with quote

Man I am just looking forward to this as an "American who knows nothing about soccer/football" so yeah, awesome stuff so far.
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Lick Meth



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:32 pm        Reply with quote

scratchmonkey wrote:
Lick Meth, if true, that's hilarious re: secret nerfs for Liverpool -- I'm on a site where people play FM a particular way (I'll get into it later) and I remember a couple of saves that hit the rocks rather badly once they'd moved to Liverpool, I have to wonder if that was the game messing with them now.

I should probably stress for the benefit of those who don't know, but both Liverpool FC and Everton are local "derby" rivals in the top flight of English football leagues (with their stadiums less than a mile apart), with LFC having had a much more prestigious trophy history than EFC (formally the highest amount up until 2012).
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tiburon



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:18 am        Reply with quote

Lick Meth wrote:
Wish I had more to say on FM, but I never got round to playing it for a myriad of weird reasons, e.g. totally unsure of managerial tactics in real world footie for most of my life, and never having much money for games in the olde days*. Not unrelated to who I support, but the only people I knew who played it locally were Everton fans, and due to the game's main coders being staunch Evertonians, they'd always insert code that made sure that LFC would always do badly, regardless of their players; this element has been relunctantly removed in more recent years, partly due to the fact that it's being used as a legit tool in the real world of footie management, and in very rare circumstances people have made careers as managers for lower league teams based upon their FM experience.

I was under the impression that the dev team were Arsenal fans, and that's why absolute trash like Marouane Chamakh, Nicklas Bendtner and Gervinho consistently scored 20+ goals a season for me. Not that I'm complaining.

cheers for the effort in explaining soccer, scratchmonkey, it's stuff i wouldn't have the patience to sit down and write, but obviously very important in playing the game.

I didn't really know the rules of American football or hockey before I started playing Madden/NHL. I still remember going for it on 4th down and always going for the two-point conversion after every touchdown because I didn't realize special teams had its own formation. Playing these games actually helped me when watching an unfamiliar sport - when you play these games without knowledge, you're forced to pick up whatever you can from the context of the interacting systems within the game itself. So when I started getting into sports like rugby and soccer, it was that much easier to engage with them since I had experience approaching very unfamiliar systems and understanding them through interaction. (Of course, interacting with a sport via spectating and commentary is much different from actually having to play the sport.)
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scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:47 am        Reply with quote

tiburon wrote:
I still remember going for it on 4th down and always going for the two-point conversion after every touchdown because I didn't realize special teams had its own formation.


Funnily enough, both of these situations are very specifically where statistics/analytics types are challenging long-held conceptions about what the "correct" thing is to do in the sense that the traditional strategic choices made by people who are steeped in the sport turn out to be non-optimal when compared to analysis of win percentages, etc., i.e. when it's 4th and 2 from your opponent's 42, which is too far out to kick a field goal, the difference between the field position that the opponent is likely to get from a punt (which is what 95% of football coaches could do) versus the odds of converting the first down and then the accumulated odds of scoring from the ensuing possession mean that you should really go for it the majority of the time.
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tiburon



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:48 am        Reply with quote

I'm a pats fan so of course we go for it all the time. long live the stats

Speaking of narrative, here is a work in progress save file of a manager attempting to fuse his philosophies with his personnel. The save file happens to be 'real life'
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/oct/01/arsenal-danny-welbeck-mesut-ozil-alexis-sanchez

Football Manager is "Football Manager RPG"
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:55 pm        Reply with quote

Now that hopefully anybody interested has read the above post about positions, let's start talking about formations. The easiest way to talk about formations is just to have a picture of where everybody lines up, which is how you set your tactics in FM and is a classic representation of tactics interacting:



That's the Zonal Marking formations graphic from Switzerland's (red, attacking from top to bottom) victory over Ecuador (yellow, attacking from bottom to top) in the group stages of World Cup 2014 in Brazil. I picked it because both formations are relatively basic for the real world, as well as providing good examples in terms of traditional vs. new-style formations as well as how notation would be used for these formations. In terms of the latter, the classic method of notation is three numbers which represent the three basic positions, Defender, Midfielder, Forward, reading left to right. Notation has evolved such that now each number refers to a "band" of players, with the WB/DM band, CM/WM band and AM/AW (Advanced Winger) band being denoted separately. Let's break down the two above formations positionally and notationally.

First, let's look at Ecuador. Using the positions outlined in the above post, we can see that they're playing with 2 central defenders, 2 fullbacks, 2 central midfielders, 2 wide midfielders and then either 1 attacking mid and 1 forward or 2 forwards -- even though Enner Valencia is definitely playing deeper than Caicedo, he's operating as more of a pure striker as somebody who drops back into midfield when not in possession. In old-style notation, this would be the classic 4-4-2, four defenders, four midfielders, two forwards. In new-style notation, this could be represented as a 4-4-2 or as a 4-4-1-1, with the latter representing the split between attackers. In my opinion, this probably still a 4-4-2 even in the new notation given E. Valencia's lack of defensive responsibilities.

Now, for Switzerland. They're playing with 2 CBs, two very active fullbacks/wingbacks, two DMs/CMs, two wide attackers, one AM/withdrawn forward and one pure forward. In old-style notation, this would be a 451. Now a lot would be lost in that notation as you have no real idea how the '5' are set up. At first glance, this would seem to denote a defensive formation when it's actually set up to attack. In new-style notation, you run into the problem that there seem to be multiple possible interpretations: the defensive players could be isolated as a '4' or the full/wingbacks could be combined with the CM/DMs as a 2-4, the attacking four could be split a number of ways, etc. However, I believe the correct breakdown would be 4-2-3-1 -- four defenders, a band of a pair of holding midfielders, and an attacking band of three behind a lone striker.

The key to this interpretation is that the above graphic does not represent both teams in a neutral state, it represents the dominant phase of play in the game, with Switzerland looking to attack and Ecuador looking to sit back, absorb pressure and then attack on the counter -- you can tell this is the case by how much further up the pitch the Swiss are -- check the difference in distance between their CBs and the halfway line and the same measurement for Ecuador. Because of this, this accentuates the attacking nature of the Swiss fullbacks, who wouldn't be playing in-line with the holding midfielders on defense and of Xhaka, whose position can be compared to E. Valencia for Ecuador, as they are holding much the same spot when the Swiss are in attack and the Ecuadorians on defense -- this indicates that Valencia is a forward -- he isn't dropping back on defense and obscuring Xhaka being a midfielder -- when the Swiss lost possession, he dropped back and formed more of a central midfield triangle with Behrami and Inler right behind him.

This example also hopefully shows the problems that both notation and Football Manager have as interpretations. Neither can completely accurately, either in a sequence of numbers, or as an extremely sophisticated simulator, recreate the fluid and often chaotic motion that you see in the actual sport.

NEXT TIME: Player attributes, positional roles and tactical workshopping!
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tiburon



Joined: 26 Sep 2012

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:19 am        Reply with quote

I always found FM's tactics manager a bit abstruse - you can assign a very basic formation, and sort of say "I want this player to be more offensive/creative/have more attacking responsibilities", or alternately tell him to drop back more and play a more holding role. But it's definitely one of the parts of the game I'd like to see improved. It's unfortunate, though, that any improvement I can think of just adds more complexity and increases the playtime required to get through a season. Especially if you consider stuff like organizing the training schedules of your players and so forth, which I was never good at - if they were to make a more effective, hands-on and less spreadsheety way of training, you also seem to add a bunch of time required, as far as I can tell.
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scratchmonkey
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Joined: 21 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:55 am        Reply with quote

The tactics have gotten better since they added the Tactics Creator, although the player roles are still pretty abstract and really take some implementing tactics, seeing how they interact in a match, then tweaking again. I think they've gotten about as right to get it so far at least they've created the FM Classic mode for people who just want to fly through the seasons like in the old CMs -- I tend to miss the fiddly bits too much to really enjoy it though.

Training is definitely a lot better -- have you played the recent versions? On FM14, individual training is only training for a specific attribute/learning a new role/learning a preferred move. And with the team training, you just decide how much time you devote to match training and general training on a slider between the two spectrums and then decide if you want to set an emphasis for both. It's so much less work than the old training system, where lots of people would just download the "proven best" training slider sets uploaded by other players because it was such a clusterfuck.
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tiburon



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:56 am        Reply with quote

Yeah I think the last one I played was either FM11 or FM12 and I remember going to a forum and downloading some training sliders. Plus you had to split it up with different presets for each type of player, such a pain.
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Joined: 21 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:07 pm        Reply with quote

Now that we have a basic idea of how positions work in FM and how they relate to how formations are used in the game, it's time to tinker with how that actually works in terms of playing the game.

Once you go through the process of creating your alter-ego and choosing a team to manage, you'll go through a brief acclimation process, the most important of which is finding out exactly what you have to work with in terms of players:



This is my current FM14 team, Kayserispor of the Turkish Super Lig, which is the highest division in the country. The most important column here for our purposes* is 'Position', because that indicates where each player can play at their greatest proficiency. FM uses a shorthand for position, where D - defensive band, DM/WB - band between defense and midfield, M - midfield band, AM - band between midfield and forwards, S - strikers/forward band; while L,R,C denote whether the player can play on the left, right or center. So Alihan Simsek, whose position is noted as a D(RL), is a fullback who can play on either side of the defense. If he could play wingback as well, it would say D/WB(RL) and if he could play only wingback on the left and could play both on the right, it would say D(LR)/WB(L).

There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to deciding on a formation and a team philosophy -- first are those managers that have an existing ideal in their head and intend to mold the team to fit that ideal. For instance, just looking at this roster, a coach who came in and wanted to play a 4-2-3-1 with attacking wingers would be in a tricky situation -- I have two players who can play AML on the roster, which would be just enough to get by; however, there's only a single player on the roster capable of playing in the AMR spot, which means that if he went down injured/was away on international duty/got sold by your chairman without asking you, you'd have to play somebody out of position. The other school of thought is those managers who see what players on the team and try and form the strongest philosophy they can by playing as many of their best players and as few of their weak players as possible. I happen to be part of that latter school mainly because I find it more interesting to try and mix things up and challenge myself to find something close to the ideal strategy for a team without needing to spend several in-game years building something new.

If we were to drill down into one of these players by clicking on their name, we would go to the player screen, from which I've clipped the most relevant section:



This is Harun Colak, a backup midfielder. I've picked him instead one of my stars because he actually has a fair amount of variance in his stats, which makes it a little more obvious what he's good at and what he isn't. First of all, look at all those stats! There are actually even more than that, since there are a number of hidden stats, around 10 or so, that you can only intuit through observation -- for example, I have a pretty good idea of which my players have pretty high Dirtiness stats, as that's one that results in players getting called for more fouls than usual, as well as picking up a ton of bookings.

Player stats are divided into three columns: Technical, Mental and Physical. Colak is a above-average technical player who is strongest at Passing the ball and is weakest at Dribbling with it, mentally, he's extremely brave, has a tendency to attempt unexpectedly creative moves (Flair) and is above-average in some of the "does the dirty work" areas (Determination, Off the Ball, Work Rate). Physically, he's pretty much average (and therefore usually the least athletic player on the pitch in the top division) except that he's got good stamina and strength.

Looking at these stats, a FM veteran would pretty much instantly know how Colak would fit into their formation/tactics on three levels: how he should be individually instructed how to play, what kind of players he should be selected with in his immediate vicinity and how he would fit into a whole-team view.

The first level is what would be covered by Player Role -- each position in the game has a number of Roles associated with it, most of which are unique to that position. It used to be that the only way you could instruct a player individually was through a bunch of sliders that you had to tweak very specifically. Some preset templates for sliders were added, which was helpful, then the sliders were hidden, with the templates become Roles and finally, the sliders were taken away entirely, with a player receiving all instructions through his Role and through specific tactical instructions that you can give the player -- this is just a series of abstractions on top of the sliders that have been completely hidden away; however, this feels much more natural and makes more sense to people not used to the intricacies of the simulation.

So off to the right of the stats you can see the positions where the player is comfortable -- in this case, we can see that he's best playing as a central mid, is slightly worse playing as a DM or an AM and that he can at least fill in as an M(L), although you wouldn't want to rely on him there. Select a position and the Roles that he's best for at that position are shown. In this case, with M(C) selected, we can see that he'd be best at:

Ball Winning Midfielder - Ball-winners are midfielders whose primary job is defensive, to close down opposing players who have the ball and try and win the ball back, either by tackling it away from them or intercepting passes. Colak would probably do well here because he's decent positionally and has the Aggression, Bravery and Strength to take on players physically.

Deep Lying Playmaker - The DLP's job is to sit deep in the midfield, make himself available to receive passes, then look to start attacking moves. Colak's strengths here are his decent on-the-ball skills and passing ability, although he's not going to be a reliable source of game-changing passes as his Creativity and Decisions are average at best.

Box-to-Box Midfielder - The two boxes in this Role's name are your team and the opposing team's penalty areas, with the idea being that BBMs are expected to cover all the ground in midfield, falling back to cover on defense and racing forward on the attack. Colak has the Stamina and is good-yet-not-great at most technical and mental attributes and all-rounders tend to do well in this Role; that said, his lack of speed means that he'd struggle to play as dynamically as this Role requires at the highest level.

So, probably the two roles Colak would be best at are relatively static and concentrated mainly in maintaining a deep or defensive posture. This will dictate what other roles you'd be looking to combine him with in central midfield, which is further complicated by how many other players are playing there and which band they're in. That's the second level. Since he'll be staying put in these roles, it would make sense to pair him with somebody more dynamic, either somebody capable of playing as a box-to-box midfielder, or an advanced playmaker of some stripe, since you could probably rely on Colak to get them the ball safely.

The third level is how this influences the overall team choice -- since Colak is relatively immobile, playing him may mean that you tweak the overall team instructions or change the role of somebody playing further forward or even behind to account for how this might change how the players interact. This is the toughest tactical situation to judge and usually requires a high amount of familiarity with all of your players and how they interact given your tactical instructions.

Please feel free to ask anything that comes to mind, or request that I flesh out anything in particular. There's so much to cover, I'm sure that I've missed something relatively basic or am skimming over something that people might find especially interesting.

* - If anybody was wondering about the obvious anomaly in the other columns, my Egyptian CB has an Abysmal morale compared to everybody else's buoyant mood because he recently got sent off in a match and I decided to fine him because of it. Apparently he really really doesn't like that and as a consequence, he hates me and feels alienated (literally, if I clicked through to him it would say (Alienated) next to his mood). His contract is up summer after next and if he continues to hate me after this season is over I will have to contemplate selling him (Fiorentina, possibly sensing a bargain, is interested) if he won't sign a new contract.
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scratchmonkey
Final Finasty


Joined: 21 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:35 am        Reply with quote

This slipped to the second page, largely I think because:

1) Nobody is really that interested in Football Manager here aside from me, Reed and possibly a couple other folks. (Which is not a complaint so much as an observation.)

2) I'd really gone down the rabbit hole of trying to describe how you play the game, which I've really barely scratched and which I suspect might be a bit boring.

So this post is more going to be about why FM works as a game; exploring what is the ludological hook that keeps me and countless other obsessives coming back for season after season and picking up each new edition of the game (although I always wait until it receives a significant discount in a Steam sale -- the difference between versions is rarely radical and it's usually not worth playing the game before they release the first major patch, as there tend to always be a few significant bugs that can kill off lengthy saves in the initial release).

I've compared FM to RPGs before and if you had to pick a "traditional" game genre that it's most like, it would be SRPGs. Bear with me here: imagine an SRPG that ran on something like FFXII's system, where you tell everybody what to do and then sit back and watch, only if the Gambits were extremely vague and heavily reliant on the interpretation of your characters. At first glance, this seems completely maddening, this relinquishing of control, after all, there are times when your characters do things that are just absolutely stupid. However, when it does work, you feel proud not only of your strategy; you also feel proud for your (entirely fictional and almost certainly less complex than they appear) characters. And conversely, them being completely stupid at times is matched with them sometimes doing the unexpected, combining with the rest of your party in a way that you hadn't entirely predicted, yet feels like a natural outgrowth of the complex systems you put in place.

The bit that I'm convinced really puts it over the top is that aside from collecting the perfect party, making sure that you have all the right roles you want covered, an archer here, knights there, a wizard gradually learning his trade to become the mightiest in the land...is that you have to anticipate first, that you will make mistakes in your personnel decisions, that somebody who looks great will actually turn out to be a dud and second and more importantly, that this game has permadeath. Not in the sense that anybody in the game actually dies dies, no, instead they just retire, whereupon they disappear*.

And before they retire, they're going to decline. Bodies will start to deteriorate and hard decisions will have to be made. You will have a hero who has won countless victories under your banner, who was likely raised from a teenager with your merry band and you know that at some point, if you want your party to remain on the knife's edge of absolute killing power, that you will have to be ruthless and tell him that his time is up. That you will have to have a replacement recruited and ready to go and that you cannot wait too long, linger over yesterday's heroes and allow your new prodigy's skill to stagnate, that you will at some point have to bring out the hook and drag the star off his stage. Now, it's true that some go easily, that they're perfectly happy to play a bit role, to transition to understudy just to remain part of the group. They are exceedingly rare. And that's what gets me coming back, that I cannot build the perfect team for more than a few snapshots in time, before somebody gets hurt, before somebody gets too old, before somebody gets their head turned by overseas riches. And then you'll have to build the perfect team again.

* - Not entirely true -- it's possible for players to move into coaching positions after they retire as players; however, the coaches will eventually retire past a certain point as well. And if either a player or a coach retires while they're on one of your shortlists (a little shopping list, essentially), a dummy record will remain for eternity, without you ever being able to remove it. It's an infuriating bug that's been around forever.
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all monsters



Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: 199X

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:21 pm        Reply with quote

scratchmonkey wrote:
This slipped to the second page, largely I think because:

1) Nobody is really that interested in Football Manager here aside from me, Reed and possibly a couple other folks. (Which is not a complaint so much as an observation.)


I have no interest in playing Football Manager but it's fascinating to read about, so I appreciate your work in this thread. Thanks for the link to the Pro Vercelli stories too, they're great.
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Wall of Beef



Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Fart Beach

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:25 pm        Reply with quote

So after you've amassed all of your preparation for a match: do you just send this list of stats to the pitch and the game rattles of list of simulated events that happened and it the end you've won, lost, or drew? Or can you control your subs or have any sort of coaching effects as the simulation is happen? How real time is it?

EDIT: If I missed this portion I am sorry (or if its to come in future posts - I guess I should assume so with how you are progressing). Also, I agree with others, this is pretty fascinating to read about.
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scratchmonkey
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Joined: 21 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:14 pm        Reply with quote

Wall of Beef wrote:
So after you've amassed all of your preparation for a match: do you just send this list of stats to the pitch and the game rattles of list of simulated events that happened and it the end you've won, lost, or drew? Or can you control your subs or have any sort of coaching effects as the simulation is happen? How real time is it?


Good question, and this hasn't really been covered before, possibly because I assumed that everybody would be familiar with how it works, which is silly.

General match flow goes like this: you decide your starting lineup and substitutes, you submit your team list and the game enters into pre-match, where you can make specific tweaks to your tactical instructions, including giving specific instructions for opponents independent of your players (i.e. always close this guy down, never mark this guy tightly, show this guy onto his left foot, etc.) and then a team pep talk where in theory you try and get your players fired up for the game (and mainly just try to avoid confusing and demotivating them).

Then, the actual match starts.

You have a variety of options for watching the match. Now, it used to be that the match action would be represented like so:



Now there's a snazzy 3D match engine:



(It can be a lot larger than that, obviously. And you can have it split-screen with analysis or a listing of how your assistant feels your players are doing or a bunch of other options -- you can also have little widgets that sit over the match engine, so you can watch scores from other games happening at the same time/live league table, etc.)

There's also an option for just watching the "commentary", which means you'll get little auto-generated text updates describing what's happening in the game, which is how it used to be way back in the day. This is by far the fastest way to get through games without using the straight-up "just simulate the actual games" option. Generally these are options used by older players who are used to how the game used to play back when it was called Championship Manager and you could fly through a few seasons in a single sitting.

Then you determine how real-time you want the match to be. Options are, at least the ones I remember:

Full Match -- Watch the whole match in "real-time" (they do cut out a lot of the dead time so you don't watch the players standing around while somebody gets the ball out of the crowd for a throw-in, for example).

Extended Highlights -- The game selects anything close to a half-chance or interesting and shows you that in highlight format, quick-simulating the rest of the match.

Key Highlights -- Like Extended Highlights, only it shows the sub-set of events that are really significant, i.e. goals, near-misses, sending-offs, etc.

There's also some scrubbing-style controls so that you can pause the match, jump to the next highlight, or jump to the previous highlight to watch it again.

While the match is being played, you have two major ways of modifying how your team is playing: Shouts and the full tactical interface. The former is a select of quick toggles, many of which are mutually exclusive, that tell your team to change how they're playing. Examples include: More Direct Passing, Retain Possession (these two being exclusive), Run at Defense, Play Wider, Get Stuck In, Higher Tempo, etc. A further example of how these would be used would be if my team scored an early goal, I would consider telling my team to change their Mentality to Counter, and add shouts to Drop Deeper, More Direct Passing, Pass Into Space, and Much Higher Tempo -- the idea here being that by placing my defensive line further into my own half, I can draw the other team onto me and then quickly launch balls behind them for my attacking players to run onto.

The full tactical interface is the Tactics screen from outside the match and is where you make the majority of substitutions* and more complex tactical changes that can't be covered by the Shouts, like formation tweaks. Since you can pause the match without penalty, you can spend a lot of time in here and in the Analysis screen as well, which will show you things like heat maps for player positioning, pass diagrams, etc.

The combination of all of these options means that one player's match experience can be very different from others -- as mentioned earlier, many players prefer to whip through matches as quick as possible, only actually interacting with the game to react to major changes, i.e. make a quick change if they go up or down a goal late on or take off a player if they're extremely tired, that sort of thing. Other players like to play the match in Full Match mode, watching the whole thing and constantly making little tweaks in response to what they're seeing or changes that the opposition might have made.

How I go through matches varies depending on where I am in terms of familiarity with my squad and the tactics that I'm using. When I have a new team, or have had serious turnover during the transfer window (when players can move between teams is restricted by various regulations) or am trying out a new tactic, I will start a game in Full Match and 2D Match Engine -- I find it easier to judge player positioning and whether my tactical strategy is working this way and I'll sit and just make sure that what's happening meets my expectations, make some tweaks until it does and then when I'm satisfied with how things are going, I'll switch to Extended or Key highlights. Once I'm comfortable with a squad and the set of tactics that we're using, I'll switch back to the 3D Match engine and watch every match usually in Extended highlight mode.

SIDENOTE: There is a fairly (in)famous FM player who played the game as close to "real time" as possible, which meant not only playing every match in Full Match and never ever pausing the flow of the game; he actually also mapped overall time in-game to real life, meaning that he would only play 1-2 matches a week, on the days that they were actually scheduled for. Rumor has it that he also wore a suit for when his team made a Cup final.

* - You can also do Quick Subs for players carrying a minor injury without pausing the game or going into Tactics.
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Lick Meth



Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: A constant state of flux

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:46 pm        Reply with quote

Dumb question: can you get unscheduled interruptions like pitch invasion/streaker, or wild objects like a balloon from the crowd? Can you get games canned for hostile (in-game) political circumstances like racist away fans or something?
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Wall of Beef



Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Fart Beach

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:40 pm        Reply with quote

scratchmonkey wrote:


SIDENOTE: There is a fairly (in)famous FM player who played the game as close to "real time" as possible, which meant not only playing every match in Full Match and never ever pausing the flow of the game; he actually also mapped overall time in-game to real life, meaning that he would only play 1-2 matches a week, on the days that they were actually scheduled for. Rumor has it that he also wore a suit for when his team made a Cup final.


I assume he sat in one of those funky leather car-style bucket seats that replaced benches in soccer.
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winkerwatson
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Joined: 04 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:45 pm        Reply with quote

No. There are occasionally incorrect refereeing decisions.
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scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:25 pm        Reply with quote

Lick Meth wrote:
Dumb question: can you get unscheduled interruptions like pitch invasion/streaker, or wild objects like a balloon from the crowd? Can you get games canned for hostile (in-game) political circumstances like racist away fans or something?


As winker notes, no, they've talked about adding more flavorful events like this to the game; however, many of them, like the fan incidents, players getting caught for using banned substances, players developing substance abuse problems, stuff that happens in real life, run afoul of the game using the names of real people, opening Sports Interactive to potential lawsuits, so they decided to largely let that sort of thing drop.
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Wall of Beef



Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:30 pm        Reply with quote

"Status Update: Peter Crouch has consumed psilocybin mushrooms during halftime. He now believes the ball is the severed head of his grandfather."
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scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:38 pm        Reply with quote

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winkerwatson
badmin


Joined: 04 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:37 pm        Reply with quote

Scratchmonkey I like to use the editor to set Scotland's youth ranking (influences how good the regen/fake youth players the game generates are) to ridiculous heights.
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scratchmonkey
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:19 pm        Reply with quote

Winker there's a developer from SI on the main FM site I frequent (very small as these communities go, so he's able to speak pretty freely) and apparently what you're doing is only a minorly more aggressive version of what one of the patriotic Scots at SI is doing already with the vanilla game -- apparently Scotland regularly outperforms expectations the longer you go in the game due to this guy's opinions of their ability to produce talented youth.
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winkerwatson
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:24 pm        Reply with quote

I have seen some stupidly good Scottish regens in my time playing Football Manager. I've built more than one team over a core of such players.

But I want stupid amounts of them floating about the game. This leads of most of them going to England the first summer after they appear in the game and rotting in reserve teams with five star undeveloped potential.

Somewhat realistic apart from the five star potential.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:27 pm        Reply with quote

Most of Scotland's real potentially good players don't make it that far. There were several now professional players in the same year as me at school. I can think of several better who didn't make it due to alcohol, drugs, unprofessionalism, fitness, anti-social behaviour etc.
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