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The SB TV thread

 
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jdoe



Joined: 06 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:38 pm        Reply with quote

It doesn't get much bleaker than the Wire, though. A dystopian fiction series would be a bit redundant, not to mention less relevant.

I've been watching Rome and Band of Brothers. Rome's alright. It's picked up as I've approached the end of the season. The show goes through these very slow, plodding sections that are too soap-operatic. I could do without the Atia plotline. Titus and Verenus, the two "everyman Romans" who get involved in most of the major historical events, carry the show.

Band of Brothers is great. I put a notch below the Wire and Deadwood, but it's still better than most of the top tier television series.
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jdoe



Joined: 06 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:16 pm        Reply with quote

But Band of Brothers isn't interested in being an extended, novel-like series. Rather, it's capturing the terrors of war and how those events bring the men involved together. The episodic nature suits that purpose well. I don't see how a tight, focused storyline would supplement its agenda. And even still, it still has an overarching plot.

Creating an immersing, intricately woven series like the Wire is very, very hard for television. It requires weeks of planning, writing, and devotion that very few series are willing to invest. It's a lot of work that alienates the audience (who are now expected to watch every episode on a regular basis). It speaks a lot about this level of writing when the Wire is the only show on television that really succeeds on an intelligent level.
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jdoe



Joined: 06 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:43 pm        Reply with quote

Ebrey wrote:
jdoe wrote:
Creating an immersing, intricately woven series like the Wire is very, very hard for television. It requires weeks of planning, writing, and devotion that very few series are willing to invest. It's a lot of work that alienates the audience (who are now expected to watch every episode on a regular basis). It speaks a lot about this level of writing when the Wire is the only show on television that really succeeds on an intelligent level.


The Wire is a combination of the Sopranos/Six Feet Under style of show, where each episode is very important to the characters, and the 24-style show, where each episode is important to the plot. The fact that that it's almost complety plotted by 2 people, David Simon and Ed Burns, also makes it feel more tightly woven than most shows (though Oz and Babylon 5 were written by one person with only small amounts of help).

Personally though, I think my favorite part of the Wire might be the dialogue. Has any other show felt so natural? The humor, for instance, captures the way real people try to amuse each other, rather than the way TV characters try to amuse audiences.


Fun Fact: A lot of the memorable dialogue is straight from actual conversations that Simon experienced when shadowing a homocide department. I strongly recommend his book Homocide to anyone interested in the Wire.
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jdoe



Joined: 06 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:29 pm        Reply with quote

Broco wrote:
Yeah, Season 2, it was my least favorite season at first, because I wasn't expecting a sudden switch to a bunch of dockworking Poles and couldn't bring myself to give much of a fuck about them, at least until the admittedly amazing ending. (No more amazing than the ending of any of the three other seasons, however!) But I just rewatched it knowing what to expect and I liked it a lot better. Those union dudes are pretty awesome. Like the way that guy loses his leg in a dock accident, and a few days later walks (limps) into the bar and yells, "I'd give my left leg for a beer!" And the way Nicky tells the truth about everything else but claims that Horse knew nothing -- the union loyalty is amazing (I hadn't been paying enough attention to catch the lie on my first viewing).


After season 4, which was more ambitious, season 2 is probably the best. Its better plotted and paced than any of the other major storylines, and gives the audience a completely different spin on the same fundamental values the series preaches. While Stringer, Bodie, Omar, et al. are all great characters, Frank Sobotka's tragedy carried more weight (at least for me). We slowly see that all of his double dealing and "bad" actions are done for the right reasons. I can't feel that way for any of the other targets, who were drawn into the underbelly of Baltimore because of their own self-propagation or ignorance.
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jdoe



Joined: 06 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:05 pm        Reply with quote

I agree a lot with your points, Broco, but I can't simply equate Sobotka down to a metaphorical force that is only harming Baltimore. He and the dock community are all humans. Is his right to fight for his own survival wrong? As much of a detriment they may be to the city's advancement, to ask them to simply cut off their support systems for the greater good seems draconian. One of the minor points of the season is that there is no room for them in Baltimore anymore beyond the docks. The end of the season shows their inevitable downfall, and it's anything but an improvement.

And I do no agree that Sobotka and Avon are parallels. A younger, less powerful Avon, maybe, but the Avon we see is far from a willfully ignorant pawn along the lines of Frank. He's shown sympathy and there is a certain tragedy with his fall from power, but his reasons for keeping the drug institution alive is not survival (this is season 1, not 3 when there is a threat). His instinctive need to conduct murders to show his power is evidence.

I may write more later, I've got to go.
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jdoe



Joined: 06 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:28 am        Reply with quote

Ebrey wrote:
There are strong parallels between dock working and drug dealing. Both are risky jobs that pay shit compared to safer jobs in offices. But to poor young people, the senior drug dealer/union member seems like the most glamorous job in the world.


Season 4 completely refutes this. The one kid who is attracted by the drug world is Namond - the ignorant, instinctive moron of the quartet. And even he knows that he sees himself dead/in jail when he's 30. This is not remotely comparable to the dockworkers, who all want to earn a honest living (in theory).

Quote:
Also, isn't it true that the Barksdale family had been running Baltimore crime for generations? This gives Avon the same reason to deal drugs as Sobotka has to be a dockworker: it's the family job.


No, Avon and Stringer build their empire on their own. No one outside the drug community knew about them (which started the police investigation) and the two constantly reminisce of the simpler days before their got in power.
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jdoe



Joined: 06 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:26 am        Reply with quote

Broco wrote:
I'm certainly not saying Sobotka is not deserving of sympathy and that there aren't other, more human sides of him than his economic impact. But everyone on The Wire is a sympathetic human character, excepting Marlo (and my money's on that that will change next season), and I was just objecting to your implication that he deserved more sympathy than the rest. I mean everyone in The Wire is just doing their best in life according to their respective limited perspectives, their "code", and those perspectives drive the ethical compromises that they choose to make. The docks, the drug dealers, the cops, the teachers, the stick-up crews, the political operatives, they're all the same in this. How is Sobotka different just because he is a member of a subculture where murdering people isn't conventional?


Again, this is a personal opinion. I have hard time sympathizing with killers, no matter what their motive was or how "conventional" it may be for them. I completely understand that there is no good/evil on the show. And as much as I think Marlo will be expanded upon, I like the idea of him embodying this symbol of pure draconian law, especially if the Greeks (the other non-humans of the show, representing capitalism) come back.

Quote:
jdoe wrote:
Ebrey wrote:

There are strong parallels between dock working and drug dealing. Both are risky jobs that pay shit compared to safer jobs in offices. But to poor young people, the senior drug dealer/union member seems like the most glamorous job in the world.


Season 4 completely refutes this. The one kid who is attracted by the drug world is Namond - the ignorant, instinctive moron of the quartet. And even he knows that he sees himself dead/in jail when he's 30. This is not remotely comparable to the dockworkers, who all want to earn a honest living (in theory).


"Glamour" is not the right word, but Ebrey is on to something. Look at Bodie's slavish obedience to Stringer, or Nicky's respect for Sobotka. And remember the kids playing Omar after a shootout.


Bodie is established as knowing nothing of the world beyond his own scope. Compare him to Michael and Dukie, who understood the hazards of the drug world. Nick's admiration of Frank is similar to Bodie - he naively refused to grasp the hazards of the Greeks (while Frank did, but thought too highly of his surrogate son). I don't think Simon expects us to equate those two as the universal opinion. The kids with Omar bothered me, since it contradicts all of this, but I think it acted more as a device for building Omar's mythology and setting up that brilliant scene with Bunk.

Quote:
(I'm also dubious of your characterization of Namond. "Naive" would describe him better. He can't be that much of a fool, seeing as he turned out the best of the four.)


The whole point of season 4 was that Namond's plucking out of the drug world was based on pure luck. He happened to be in the right situation at the right time (the right situation being a poor student, ironically). Maybe fool is harsh (he's just a kid), but he's certainly ignorant. Bunny saving him had nothing to do with Namond's resourcefulness.
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jdoe



Joined: 06 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:08 pm        Reply with quote

Ebrey wrote:
Broco wrote:

And why must all their avatars be gangsters? Why no dockworkers or politicians or whatever? Sigh. (That explains the show's decently high ratings, anyway. It was naive of me to think the public rewarded something for being good for once.)


I actually think it's cool that The Wire is becoming part of mainstream black culture as opposed to just being a white intellectual's show. The Wire is the most intelligent show on TV, and there's no way it could survive on an audience of geniuses. This way it fulfills two purposes: it gives smart people (of all races) something to watch that doesn't insult their intelligence, and it gives black people a realistic drama. As far as I know The Wire is the first majority black show that isn't a sitcom.


Are you joking? This response, with all of these kids saying "oh man, omar's the shit, marlo's the shit. fuck this politics crap i wanna see a showdown", is absolutely terrible. What reasonable purpose could this possibly fulfill beyond giving them some sort of gangster fantasy? Not only are they watching the Wire for the wrong reasons, but they're essentially embodying everything the Wire condemns.
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jdoe



Joined: 06 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 11:01 pm        Reply with quote

I know Lost isn't particularly loved here (and perhaps rightfully so), but the past four or five episodes have been surprisingly good. Each has had a focused plot, flashbacks that don't act as the singular cause for a character's angst, and a higher emphasis on the stronger cast members. It's sort of reversal from the first half of the season, when the show had become some sort of delusional mess of plot points. I had forgotten that while Lost is no Wire, or even a Rome, it can still be very entertaining.
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jdoe



Joined: 06 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 3:22 am        Reply with quote

Broco wrote:

Yeah all the seasons end like that. There is some triumph and some tragedy, but mostly a lot of shit that goes down in a manner that nobody in the show (or audience) at all expected it to, yet seems like a natural enough development after the fact. The way stuff happens in real life, in other words.


Which is the opposite of how Lost handles its season finale. That was utterly bizarre - it didn't have the tone of a finale nor even a normal episode. They better stick with these flashforwards, since its absolutely brilliant.
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