[internisus]

Utopias and dystopias are my favorite kinds of "speculate fiction" -- because they represent extremes, I suppose. That's what separates them from most sci-fi, isn't it? I can't think of many utopias; dystopias seem more common. Aldous Huxley's Island is the only utopia that comes to mind. Here are some dystopias off the top of my head:

Brave New World (novel)
1984 (novel)
We (novel)
Brazil (film)
The Island (film)
Appleseed (film)

Now, there are major formal differences between most of these. For example, The Island seems to me to be an encapsulated dystopia; it only acts like a proper dystopia for the first 30-40 minutes or so. After that, the dystopia is placed within the sci-fi context of the rest of the world.

Brazil is a weak dystopia. Because it's so strongly satirical (amongst other flavours!) you can tell from the get-go that this world is pretty fucked up. A true dystopia has to seem like a utopia at first, and then the layers peel back as you and the protagonist(s) realize the truth.

Also, Appleseed might actually be a utopia, if not for things going wrong and secrets about the utopia's foundations coming to light. So it's hard to say.

We is a book that I just picked up this week. I've only glanced through it so far, but the very first chapter (called Record 1) sounds disturbingly like modern American foreign policy, even though it's a thoroughly Soviet novel written at the beginning of the 20th century. Here's a quote:

I am merely copying, word for word, what was printed in the State Gazette today:

[Corinth]

I need to reread Rendezvous With Rama, is one thing I need to do. Does my library card still work?

[rabite gets whacked!]

[psiga]

[internisus]

[Felix]

guardian how is the copy editing going

[Predator Goose]

Obligatory mention for me about Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged.

Also, if you're the kind of guy who likes sources, there's the aptly titled Utopia by Sir Thomas More.

I wouldn't recommend either of them for you though.
_________________
I can no longer shop happily.

[psiga]

[IIOIOOIOO]

More like Bitchtopia.

[parkbench]

Check out Karel Capek's War with the Newts. It's...really, really prescient. Very relevant. I wouldn't say it's a full-on rosy-eyed utopia, or...black-eyed...? dystopia, but it's definitely got major elements of both.
_________________
metafilter vs. youtube comments

[Renfrew]

I guess that Roger Zelazney's Lord of Light is a type of dystopia.

It takes place far in the future on a planet colonized by one spaceship from Earth. The crew of the spaceship set take control of the planet, use technology to set themselves up as the gods of the Hindu pantheon, imprison the natives and call the demons, and oppress the passengers from the ship. They have perfect technology for transplanting brainwaves, or whatever, so hardly anyone ever dies from age or illness, they just move to a new body. However, the "gods," are afraid of revolution, so they stop any technological advances past a certain point.

Its been a while, since I've read it, but I believe that this goes on for millions of years.

So I guess its a sort of low-level technology dystopia.
_________________

[psiga]

My general take is that utopia/dystopia fiction is akin to the science fiction that put 'cigar-shaped rocket ships and robots with flailing ventilation-duct arms' on the map. By the time we're able to reasonably create one or the other, technology and the depth of civilization (all cultures and sub-cultures combined) will be well outside the grasp of today's most prescient writers. Not even to say 'more advanced' -- merely more intricate.

The things standing in the way of utopia and dystopia are inherently human elements. Most writers break that issue down to "lol taek a pill" or "lol big head tells us wut 2 do." Kinda bores me.

In closing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g-yrjh58ms
_________________

[CubaLibre]

[Predator Goose]

[internisus]

Goose, I think that bit was sarcasm. Unless I misunderstood the post?

I'd like to read about this so-called corporate-state system... uh, where is it implemented?

I like American principles just fine. One of my favorite shows is The West Wing, and boy do I get patriotic. But what aren't so hot are American people. America being what is is has huge, frightening problems. But thinking idealistically, and like Psiga touched on, I can's see anything standing between the basic elements of infrastructure and a "perfect" society except people and their inclination to put greed before good.

[Predator Goose]

No, no sarcasm there. A of kids just doesn't sound that ominous. It sounds touchy feely, which is what kindergarten is.

Does the comparison of kids as flowers or vegetables really offend anyone?
_________________
I can no longer shop happily.

[haze]

ever read Ecotopia? very hippie book, many people will hate it for that. I'm not sure if it was even that well written but hey it was at least interesting.

I think the technology used in it already existed when it was written, so it was somewhat realistic! yet, whether human attitudes could change that much is what's questionable.... even in California, where the whole book is set.


as much as I enjoy dystopian fiction it annoys me how ridiculously cliche they've become.

[internisus]

[rf]

This is kinda interesting. Though be warned, it's by David Barash (and his daughter), a wacky local prof who wrote a book of Darwinian literary criticism (ugh*) and a bunch of books that attack monogamy or something like that.

I remember this being interesting too, but probably only if you haven't read BNW in a long time, which I hadn't. It's kind of long, too.

*The main reason I dislike these types of things isn't the science (though it's sometimes bad), it's is that their insights are usually pretty "obvious," explaining the effects of the plot through the basic human drives that are (obviously) involved. That might make a nice meta-study of why literary plots are effective in general, but it reveals little interesting about any particular work.
_________________

[Renfrew]

I just watched The Sleeper. A very uniquely Woody Allen look at dystopias.
_________________

[psiga]

[wasted potential]

Appleseed had dystopian motifs?

I thought it was just some crap movie about bioroids who wanted the right to fuck.
_________________

[CubaLibre]

[rabite gets whacked!]

[Predator Goose]

It would depend on the type of garden the gardener wanted to make. Even still, "identical" isn't usually a gardening goal.

And you can stretch just about any well intentioned monicker to mean something sinister if you like.
_________________
I can no longer shop happily.

[CubaLibre]

Imagine the phrase "Child Garden." Would it make sense anywhere outside of a dystopian model? Should have been included in Brave New World, now that I think of it.

Why is the phrase in German? Because we stole it from the Prussians, obviously, but then we don't put "first grade" in German.

When was the last time you used anything you learned in school as part of its curriculum? When was the last time an employer told you that your high school education - specifically, not the little piece of paper they give you at the end - mattered? How much of a cliche is it that yer booklearnin don't mean nothin round here, it's only experience that matters? Why do you think that's such a common attitude?
_________________
Let's Play, starring me.

[Dark Age Iron Savior]

[haze]

you're thinking of a "children's farm" or "children's factory" not a "children's garden"

from reading on the history of the word it's pretty obvious it was meant to convey the positive aspects of a garden. kids socializing and playing instead of copying and memorizing books, which was probably the norm at the time. a garden rather than a factory or farm. oh wait i already said that.

was your kindergarten year traumatic or something? was it.... dystopian in nature?

[dark steve]

[Ratoslov]

[teecee]

[Focus]

I am too tired to make a post about it, but:

THX 1138 is a good film. It might not hit all of the RIGHT spots, but it works in places.
_________________

[Predator Goose]

[Toto]

Goose, most people here are Arts degree types. When you're an engineer/technician/physicist person, you need the education you have, even from high school level.

[psiga]

A rapidly dying unmoving block of vegetable matter with no free will -- with thorns I suppose -- by any other name, is still a rapidly dying unmoving block of vegetable matter with no free will. With thorns I suppose.
_________________

[CubaLibre]

I wish I had gone to vo-tech instead of normal college prep high school. At least then I would have learned something.
_________________
Let's Play, starring me.

[CubaLibre]

Or:

Most certainly and definitely read this. (warning: annoying advertising links in text) I defy you to look into your own middle/high school experience, and the middle/high school experience of everyone you know, and society around you, and say that he's wrong in any important way.

For a more historical angle, read this. (warning: typos and comic sans ms) I encourage you to read for yourself the books and tracts he mentions, the ones that form the foundation of modern compulsory schooling.

If you're too lazy to read even the first one, consider: the police power of the state is used to pre-empt a child's daylight hours for twelve years, with no important input on the part of him, his parents, or anyone else who might have a personal stake in his development. How is that anything but a fundamental betrayal of democratic principles?
_________________
Let's Play, starring me.

[evnvnv]

[Renfrew]

Good to see another Zelazney fan, evnvnv. Have you read anything else by him?

Right now I am reading The Changeling.

Its one of those that has a mysterious great war long ago between technology and magic (tm), and so in the current setting of the book, magic won out and things are very rural. Because of plot points, however, it is revealed that a wizard has the power to go to different realities, and as such has to make use of the alternate world where technology won. This technological world may very well be a utopia, but like many of Zelazney's works, we only get to see a little of this grand setting.
_________________

[Loki Laufeyson]

people might turn their noses up at this, but:
a couple of years ago in marvel, cable set up his own country on an artificial island that was a nice utopia. the governments of the world were not comfortable with this.
lots of alternate marvel earths are dystopian: days of future past, age of apocalypse, the reigning, what if captain america were revived in the modern day?, what if charles xavier became the juggernaut?.
_________________

http://lunaticobscurity.blogspot.com/ - newest post: Snezhaja Koroleva (Arcade)
http://lunargarbagehell.blogspot.com/ - newest post: Batman: Digital Justice

[rf]