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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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 Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:59 pm |
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| SplashBeats wrote: |
| could we please stop screaming "fuckhole" and "shithead" at each other when we disagree? this thread reads like gamefaqs. |
I would love that, but the button that threatens my life won't allow it, Joe. |
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:59 pm |
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| SplashBeats wrote: |
| could we please stop screaming "fuckhole" and "shithead" at each other when we disagree? this thread reads like gamefaqs. |
haha
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:00 pm |
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| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| After you hit said button, one of two things happen, which, unless you are completely unemotionally effected by visual audio experiences (in which case stop playing videogames) both of which are meant to evoke different responses. |
Yet fail horribly.
Not only is the game utterly biased in its moral compass that saving them nets you more rewards than not, undermining the entire point, but harvesting them in the first place is a "green blood" moment. Saving them is, well, I really didn't care, because they barely look human after you've helped them out. Not to mention how cheap emotionally, and utterly trite, it becomes as the plot develops.
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SplashBeats
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:00 pm |
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| Mister Toups wrote: |
| SplashBeats wrote: |
| could we please stop screaming "fuckhole" and "shithead" at each other when we disagree? this thread reads like gamefaqs. |
haha |
*in non-axe forums, at least |
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GcDiaz
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Clinton, MA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:30 pm |
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Might I suggest we use NAGMO instead? It's such a superior cuss word in relation to all others.
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:31 pm |
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| GcDiaz wrote: |
| Might I suggest we use NAGMO instead? It's such a superior cuss word in relation to all others. |
this is true. |
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internisus
shafer sephiroth
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:45 pm |
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The point of all my complaining is that killing little girls is a cutscene preceded by a choice between two buttons. It's very nearly non-interactive. That's the problem.
| GcDiaz wrote: |
| internisus wrote: |
I don't even know what to say about this.
This is the single most disappointing thing that I have ever seen.
What a motherfucking joke. |
I hope you realize the "select button" was my own addition. Otherwise, dude... |
Of course I did. |
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:47 pm |
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| internisus wrote: |
| The point of all my complaining is that killing little girls is a cutscene preceded by a choice between two buttons. It's very nearly non-interactive. That's the problem. |
The idea of non-interactivity is really relevant to the game. Really Internsius, play through the game thinking about this. It's gonna piss you off, no doubt, but think while being pissed off. |
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Moogs
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:58 pm |
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Can you ever hold more than $500 in your wallet?
If not, why does the game make me think I can? |
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:00 pm |
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| Moogs wrote: |
Can you ever hold more than $500 in your wallet?
If not, why does the game make me think I can? |
You know, I have been wondering about this myself. |
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:50 pm |
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| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| The idea of non-interactivity is really relevant to the game. |
For all of one scene, sure. Beyond that, they have very little excuse.
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chevluh
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:53 pm |
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| internisus wrote: |
| The point of all my complaining is that killing little girls is a cutscene preceded by a choice between two buttons. |
According to the devs:
| Ken Levine wrote: |
I think a lot of people on the boards were upset when they heard you couldn't shoot the Little Sisters. I'm not sure why, but that's their prerogative. I thought it was much more powerful to have it right in front of you, with that choice. I still find that sequence almost unwatchable. If that's tame, I don't know... I mean, I guess people are accustomed to different things.
[...]
It's every developer's call. I personally believe that art is art and reality is reality, but it wasn't meaningful in our game and it didn't advance what we were trying to do. There were gameplay problems with it, and it was just the wrong thing for us. At the end of the day, it was a controversial decision internally, with people asking, "Well, are you limiting what people can do?" For me it was a no brainer--well, not a no brainer, but it was a clear path once I thought about it.
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:58 pm |
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Sure, Ken. But you're hardly making us face anything at all, are you? I mean, a green filter and she disappears, replaced with a slug? Where's the corpse? Where's the evidence that somehow I took the bastard's way through? Where's the theme of practicality versus moral judgement? I mean, it's bad enough that neither one of the endings truly address the themes of the game, which sabotages itself ideologically in the last third, but to put such an apparently consequential (it isn't) act down to a choice menu is poor show, old boy. Not to mention that, in the end, it really isn't more practical to harvest them at all: You get more rewards out of pretending to give a damn.
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chevluh
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:00 pm |
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| You may want to read the whole interview, it's linked in the spoiler thread. |
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:02 pm |
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I have, a good couple days beforehand. Unfortunately, didn't satisfy my wondering where the devil they went wrong. These people are behind the Thief series, for God's sake.
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Nate
Joined: 01 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:05 am |
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| Dracko wrote: |
| Where's the theme of practicality versus moral judgement? I mean, it's bad enough that neither one of the endings truly address the themes of the game |
I'd say the game wears its theme quite openly: You are rewarded for giving a damn. The "good" ending makes this quite explicit.
| Dracko wrote: |
| in the end, it really isn't more practical to harvest them at all: You get more rewards out of pretending to give a damn. |
Yup.
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:10 am |
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Unfortunately, the "good" ending is exactly the sort of cliché that I thought BioShock was attempting to do away with. It's like a Z-movie, or a Wachowski brothers film or something equally trite. The "bad" one is just as bad.
But beyond that, why harvest at all if it's made explicit it isn't in your interest? How is making the practical option the "good" one supposed to reveal your better moral stance?
If that truly was what they were going for, then I for one am disappointed that their writing is turning to crap with each passing game.
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:41 am |
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| Dracko wrote: |
| boojiboy7 wrote: |
| The idea of non-interactivity is really relevant to the game. |
For all of one scene, sure. Beyond that, they have very little excuse. |
Well and everything before that scene, as you only think it is interactive. |
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:49 am |
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I see what you're getting at, but you're still playing the thing beforehand.
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Cossix
submersible administrator
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Location: San Jose
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:51 am |
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| Dracko wrote: |
Unfortunately, the "good" ending is exactly the sort of cliché that I thought BioShock was attempting to do away with. It's like a Z-movie, or a Wachowski brothers film or something equally trite. The "bad" one is just as bad.
But beyond that, why harvest at all if it's made explicit it isn't in your interest? How is making the practical option the "good" one supposed to reveal your better moral stance?
If that truly was what they were going for, then I for one am disappointed that their writing is turning to crap with each passing game. |
I was pretty disappointed in the good ending too, until I kind of reconciled it with the whole rapture theme. I haven't seen the bad ending yet. |
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boojiboy7
narcissistic irony-laden twat
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: take me on a blatant doom trip.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:53 am |
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| Dracko wrote: |
| I see what you're getting at, but you're still playing the thing beforehand. |
Well yeah, but it is a nice bit of meta-commentary on playing games in general. |
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Nate
Joined: 01 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:55 am |
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| Dracko wrote: |
| Unfortunately, the "good" ending is exactly the sort of cliché that I thought BioShock was attempting to do away with. It's like a Z-movie, or a Wachowski brothers film or something equally trite. The "bad" one is just as bad. |
Well, that may be or that may not be, and I don't know what Bioshock was or was not attempting to do away with. But it tells you: being altruistic toward others is rewarding, and not necessarily just a way to be exploited by parasites.
This is reinforced by at least two other major elements of the game, one is the harvesting mechanic, and the other is kind of a spoiler so I won't elaborate here.
| Dracko wrote: |
| But beyond that, why harvest at all if it's made explicit it isn't in your interest? How is making the practical option the "good" one supposed to reveal your better moral stance? |
Is the game supposed to be a vehicle for me to reveal my moral stance?
Perhaps the game was more interested in imparting its moral stance?
I don't know what Ken Levine's answer to these questions would be, (and I'm not going to read that interview with him because I kind of don't care and I'm also sure he would just say PR stuff that would just end up depressing me), but in execution the game is firmly saying "No" to the first and "Yes" to the second. Except for the bad ending video, which was just dumb and without point, although I can kind of salvage it in my mind if I shoe-horn in an interpretation that ties in with the mid-game Ryan scene.
Also, the fact that harvesting is not in your interest is NOT made explicit in the game until after the fact. Unless you read about it elsewhere, like on a games-related internet discussion forum.
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Ness
banned
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:30 am |
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| bioshock is significantly better than half-life 2. |
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Intentionally Wrong
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:58 am |
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| Ness wrote: |
| bioshock is significantly better than half-life 2. |
If the criteria you're attempting to satisfy is "Which game does Ness like more," then I wouldn't attempt to argue otherwise. Yet I somehow think that you're thinking of different criteria altogether.
Also, your avatar is painful to look at. His eyes are asymmetrical.
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BotageL
pretty anime princess
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: *fidget*
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:06 am |
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Why does kzkb1 need a gimmick account?
(And don't give me some boring answer like, "I'm kzkb1's roommate/sibling/gay lover." Make up something outlandish, at least.)
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Ness
banned
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:12 am |
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It wasn't so much a gimmick as a desire to "start over," so to speak.
Guess that didn't work out!
Seriously though I think bioshock is better than Half-Life 2.
Last edited by Ness on Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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BotageL
pretty anime princess
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: *fidget*
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:13 am |
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The IP button is always entertaining.
Sadly, most posters don't seem to have a good gimmick account. Aside from DAIS's. Sheer genius. But I digress.
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Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:14 am |
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IP button?
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BotageL
pretty anime princess
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: *fidget*
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:16 am |
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Mods can use it to see what the IP a poster is using is. It also reveals any other users that have posted from the same IP.
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Ness
banned
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:25 am |
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| Intentionally Wrong wrote: |
If the criteria you're attempting to satisfy is "Which game does Ness like more," then I wouldn't attempt to argue otherwise. Yet I somehow think that you're thinking of different criteria altogether. |
Honestly, Half-Life 2 has so little substance that there's no question in my mind that Bioshock is a better game. AI, combat, vehicles, and level design are all aggressively mediocre, the storytelling and pacing gets off to a cool start before descending into a rushed and unsatisfying mess that somehow also manages to be boring, and the weapons are all either straight from HL1 or have been seen in better games like Psi-Ops. About the only cool things about the game are the art and sound design, neither of which have anything to do with gameplay. It's less of a videogame than a roller coaster ride.
Now if we were talking about Episode 1 that would be different, as it has the best implementation of an AI partner yet seen in a game. (Enough that the partially obnoxious "love me!" thematics - also seen in HL2 proper - can be mostly ignored.) Though that itself brings new problems - Gordan's silence becomes less of a funny gimmick and more of a severe annoyance. I don't play FPSes so I can practice being the biggest asshole in the universe.
Bioshock, although significantly flawed, is a somewhat worthy successor to System Shock 2, mainly because of the brilliance of Rapture as a game world.
| Quote: |
| Also, your avatar is painful to look at. His eyes are asymmetrical. |
I apologize! |
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dhex
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:37 am |
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| Quote: |
| I don't play FPSes so I can practice being the biggest asshole in the universe. |
then you're doing it for all the wrong reasons.
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Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:39 am |
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I don't think that Deus Ex quite fits into the traditional FPS style.
Totally fun to be a dick though.
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:44 pm |
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| Ness wrote: |
| bioshock is significantly better than half-life 2. |
I don't know if I agree with this, but I think Bioshock is ultimately a much, much, much more ambitious game than Half Life 2 is, and even though it fails to fulfill its ambition as well as Half Life 2, it's successful enough for me to believe that it will eventually prove to be more influential. I agree with nearly all criticisms voiced thus far (ball was dropped on little sister/morality thing, last third of the game is pointless, writing nosedives, etc), buuuuuuuuuuut:
| Quote: |
Bioshock, although significantly flawed, is a somewhat worthy successor to System Shock 2, mainly because of the brilliance of Rapture as a game world. |
This sums it up for me very, very well. Because of this, I feel like I will always find Bioshock more absorbing and compelling than Half Life 2, despite its flaws.
In other words, the game is somewhat like Silent Hill for me -- even if the story in that game wasn't as good as it is, I'd still want to replay it often, simply because it creates such a distinct and real sense of place. Silent Hill is a place that I always want to go back to, and I get the same vibe from Rapture as well...
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:47 pm |
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Ness, even if your points where accurate - I'm sure they are to yourself - you still haven't explained how BioShock is better. I mean, if we're talking about mediocre level design, plotting and pacing, not to mention weapons, combat and A.I., surely Half-Life 2 comes out on top. Fighting in BioShock is an utter chore. The plot can not maintain its momentum at all, unlike Half-Life 2, and ends on a suicidal note, ripping apart whatever thematic resonance it had, as it's all window-dressing instead of being part of the experience proper. The enemies, though they are mentalists, have exceedingly simplistic and predictable fighting patterns. Half-Life 2 circumvents that issue, which isn't a major one in its attempt at creating one of the most accessible games ever, with well-thought out set-pieces or by placing them in very specific locations structured around the map. The level design is also far more varied in Half-Life 2. BioShock seems content with creating cramped hub after cramped hub, and does not use its own environments to the best it could.
How you can say that Half-Life 2 has little substance with a straight face is really not for me to say. But considering it doesn't overdo itself with artifice, considering it sets out and achieves all it attempts to do, considering that all the elements of its design have evidently taken a lot of effort and collaboration to work together, simply considering it's just about one of the most elegant pieces of gaming since IF or your most basic platformers, I'd say you're doing it more than just a disservice.
And if you're unwilling to play the game as it should be played, that's hardly the developers' fault. If you're going down that road, BioShock allows you to act like a dick, die, and keep on doing so ad nauseam. Not even System Shock 2 inspired such detachment towards actually playing a role in a game, and I'm going to argue that that's down to its atmosphere being so thrilling.
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dhex
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:30 pm |
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the apollo square "have you seen me" posters were an interesting 9/11 throwback.
i was genuinely surprised.
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Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:37 pm |
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The orange box needs to come out already, before I'm completely soured on it.
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Predator Goose
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Oversensitive Pedantic Ninny
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dhex
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:38 pm |
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eh, digital distribution is pretty fucking awesome. (at least how steam & bleep does it)
i mean the dude does have four more activations.
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taidan
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:48 pm |
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This wouldn't bother me quite as much if said game on Xbox 360 was available for all of my household to play.
Waiting for 2k to spin that this is why it costs $10 more. |
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Toups
tyranically banal
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Location: Ebon Keep
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:51 pm |
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why can't the dude just sign on to his older brother's account and play that way?
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Dracko
a sapphist fool
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:02 pm |
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Why should he play for free?
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