[internisus]

Select Button, I have never needed your help more than I do now.

I don't know anything about computers.

I mean, I know kind of a little, I think. I know I need a motherboard, a processor (are those the same thing?!), a video card, a sound card, a hard drive, RAM, DVD-R drive, and a case. And a keyboard, mouse, monitor, and headphones. This is the extent of my knowledge of what makes up a computer.

I figure that I have, at maximum, this to spend:

$900 for the computer itself
$200 for the monitor
$100 for a pair of headphones

$1200 total budget. This leaves me $100 for immediate purchase of sweet games while still feeling comfortable about my wallet.

My goal is a pretty-much top-of-the-line-if-possible Windows-based machine.

I want to be able to run you know STALKER, Bioshock, HL2 Episode 2, Crysis, etc. etc. perfectly as maxed settings. It would be nice to be confident about running everything that comes out over the next year just as well without needing to upgrade anything. I mean, I am going to be using this for a lot more than playing games, but I figure that is where I'll need to maximize specs. I feel like I've spent my whole life within a few hundred megs of hard drive capacity, so I'd like a whole lot of space, as well. I'm a media and information packrat.

So please help me to put this together. Please tell me if the above is a reasonable expectation at that price.

Where do I want to go for these things? Newegg.com?

I'd like the monitor to be widescreen and preferably the next size up from 19 inches, whatever that is. I want to impress myself. Do I need to consider its adaptability? I want to be able to live in a high resolution but also play Knytt Stories happily.

I figure for headphones I'll get a decent pair of Grados or whatever you tell me is good for simulating surround sound in games.

This is my first computer since the machine I received as a gift in 2001, and that one wasn't really tip-top for its time. So this is a big deal for me, and I want to do it right.

I'll be putting it together myself, learning as I go. I'll also be asking you for help with this or for (visual) explanatory resources online.

I intend to retrieve old data off of a hard drive in the computer I am using now as well as a hard drive in a computer than no longer works. How can I do this directly?

Do I want Vista? Is that expensive? Will I need to change my cost figures to incorporate it?

It will likely be possible for me to buy all of these things and be prepared to put them together as early as one week from now.

Thanks for anything you can help me with.

[internisus]

Talbain: Yeah, I really want to build it myself. The customization is important to me, and I am eagerly looking forward to finally learning stuff about computers. Thanks for spelling out a whole issue I hadn't even planned on worrying about -- compatibility. =(

[internisus]

Oh my god. This is a little overwhelming. I'm only going to respond to a few things that I want to get clear immediately, first. I'll reread this intel later and see what specific points I need to follow-up on.

But first of all, thanks for all the thorough advice!

Alright now, no Vista; just XP. I can make it less ugly, right? But I'm a little unclear still on the updates thing. How would I get automatic updates without having them download automatically or installing? But it sounds like -- for security (which I have never, ever worried about; who would want to gain access to my computer?) -- I should just stick to the original XP without any updates. Is this right?

What is the quality of sound with just the motherboard and no soundcard usually like? If I buy, for instance, a decent $75 pair of Grados, will I be disappointed by how games and music sound? Also, I am a bit of an audiophile, though my 1985 Buick Regal's sound system is a stock 2-speaker tinny thing and I've come to like for what it is. I mean, I'm not unadaptable. But I do mix music and things, and I do enjoy high reference-quality playback. And, again, it would be nice for me to experience something like surround sound for the first time ever in videogames. I've been playing shit with like a $20 pair of Sony something-or-others, and I'd like to change this just as much as I'd like to change the graphic quality and framerate I get in Half-Life 2. So do I need a soundcard then?

Also, FYI all: I have never understood the whole overclocking thing. What exactly it is (does it mean using more power than something should for greater performance?), how it's done, why it's done, what the risks are, how it influences purchasing decisions and performance expectations, whether overclocking people overclock all the time or just when they need a boost, etc.

I am starting to understand the myriad possibilities involved in putting together a computer (which is really cool and exciting) and that subsequently there are many different possible approaches. Now, it sounds like I will not be able to run Crysis at max settings without increasing my budget. That is kind of annoying, but let's finish this thought. I have two major options here: I can hold out until I have more money for this operation and put together a really ridiculous machine, or I can accept this state of affairs and build something more reasonable, fully planning to upgrade here and there and swap out components for years like a normal person.

This is a lot like when I put together my first audio rig; I was so excited by the project and wanted my first taste of audiophilia to be really top-notch, so I went all-out. I bought a $900 cd player, a $650 amp, a $350 pair of headphones, a $120 after-market cable for the phones, a $200 power regulator... the interconnects were Cardas Golden Reference. I think the .5m pair was like... I don't remember. Maybe $700. Sweet reckoning jesus in heaven it was marvelous, and I loved it for years, but now that I have some perspective I realize Holy Crap that was pretty ridiculous of me. It's in my nature to want the very best version of anything I can get so that my first experience of it is the best it can be. Also, I'm uncomfortable with change. So I have to fight that:

Because it seems like what I should do here is to take a middle-road between Felix's minimalistic approach (though maybe you should explain it to me more; maybe it is right for me) and a top-of-the-line machine. Maybe I should have faith in the fact that all of the reasonably priced computer parts everyone is showing me are indicative of today's tech market and are going to be perfectly decent. So I guess I should just try for that: a very good computer for right now. Something that can max out HL2: Episode 2 but not Crysis -- so long as I'll be able to run Crysis at a decent level. Does that sound realistic? And

But that leads to new issues in planning, because that means I have to be sure to purchase parts with much swapping in the machine's future. The case may have to be able to accommodate more than it seems like just from what I buy now, for example. I have to be careful that the motherboard I pick up is widely compatible. That sort of thing, right?

Also, it sounds like I could actually scale my budget back one or two hundred dollars, which would make me extra comfortable.

So what should I do? What approach is right for me?

Felix, I'm interested in the idea of a small case that's packed full -- used to its maximum potential. Performance over quantity and the appearance of quality. That sounds like what you're about, if I understand right. But does such a machine have an overly constrictive future in upgrading individual components?

[internisus]

I'm fairly sure that, despite running adaware every so often, every computer I've had at home since dial-up has been a part of that net. I equate a computer's age with a decline in performance due to slowdown and accumulated, unexplained processes in task manager.

But if I use a firewall, at least on this computer, my internet connection basically ceases. And if I got past that I'm pretty sure bittorrent can't work through a firewall, right?

When I build this computer, I am going to have more comprehensive antivirus and such than Norton; it's part of the whole super-streamlined Windows thing that offers no information at all on what's really happening.

Part of my confusion about security is that I don't understand what a firewall does. Does it stop those bots and such from taking root at all? Don't those come in attached to things I download? Or does it stop unauthorized outgoing transmissions so that they become ineffectual?

Would you guys believe that I went to High Technology High School? Using computers was part of that technology, but I never learned a damn thing about them. Though I did make arcanoid in Java afterschool for a time. That sucked. I also learned machine code. That was a little cooler.

[internisus]

Okay, okay. Well, the internet connection that comes into our house goes through a router; one of the things that I'll do later is find out how to evaluate the protection I will receive from this specific router when I hook my machine up to it.

So, uh, another thing here is that Newegg offers Bill Me Later. I might consider adding up to another thousand dollars to my budget if I can do that. Before I would use such a thing I would be very sure of my financial future and ability to pay off prior to the deadline date when fees kick in, of course. But, while I have to consider things based on the events of the next week, it's a strong possibility.

The only thing is that some of the explanations make it sound like a customer's ability to use Bill Me Later is contingent upon a review of credit rating and such, while others say that no prior approval is required. It's very confusing.

[internisus]

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So I was not approved for a line of credit. I'm still going to try the BillMeLater 90-day thing, and anyway if I can't do that either I'd still like to be ready with the parts I want as soon as I'm comfortable making the purchase. So I'm trying to fit things together now.

I really am kind of in love with that too-small case that Eudaimon is running. The dearth of fitting videocards and lack of space for airflow and heatsink sound like deal breakers, though, if I understand right. But damn, look at it!



And it's so small! And it weighs a full ten pounds! I checked that company's other merchandise on newegg and saw nothing remotely similar. My heart is breaking! Maybe I should go for like a really basic computer with this case right now and build a better one, really going nuts, when I have more money. Like, if I could just say fuck it to whatever games haven't come out yet and put together something small and very affordable with this case that could still do a hell of a thing with Episode 2 and STALKER and Bioshock, I would be very happy with that. But unless there are low-profile videocards up to that task (that I'll be able to find and buy), it's probably impossible.

Actually all of the cases on newegg except this one are ugly. Felix that includes your Athenatech recommendation. It's the worst of the bunch! This is terrible.

So here's a question! What are expansion slots for? I mean these:



Also the computer I am using right now has stuff in the front (and probably back) that I don't know. It has a thing that says "SD/MMC/SM/MS/MS-PRO" and another next to it that says "CF/Microdrive." What are these weird-looking things? Also this computer has an AMD Sempron 3300+ processor, an nVIDIA GeForce 6100, and a 10/100 Mbps Ethernet LAN. Now, quick, tell me how awesome the future is.

Also also, how would anyone ever use 5 USB ports at the same time?

Anyway, I'm still confused on the fan-noise issue. I mean, Felix and Panoptic, you two are flat-out contradicting each other on this.

And I'm definitely going to need advice about monitors if anyone is up to that...

[internisus]

I'm sure it's a decent case. I just think it's ugly (this is kind of important to me... why not have a beautiful case if you can?) and... wouldn't I rather choose my own power supply and put it in myself? Do most cases come with power supplies?

Sorry if I'm being a pain. Newegg's server seems to be messed up at the moment. If anyone has thoughts on where I could find a case as nice as that one I like but a little bigger so I can fit PCI video cards and overclock without creating a furnace, well, I'd appreciate that. I kind of can't stand ugly electronics equipment; that was a definite factor back when I put together my audio setup. Like this lovely here:



Since I didn't put this guy together, it was just good research and fortune that it worked as well as it did with everything else. But I will be putting this machine together, and I want to be proud of how it looks on the outside too.

Should I care about memory card readers? Actually, in general, is there anything that isn't done via USB nowadays that I should be cognizant of?

[internisus]

Okay, I am done being a prude. I just want a pretty decent modern computer; I'll rebuild it to prettiness and perfection and bells and whistles later when I have money to burn. So I'm ready to do this right now if I can keep the cost down.

So. I was looking at this case but then realized that it doesn't come with a PSU, and suddenly I realized how cost-saving it is to get that Athenatech you suggest, Felix. So I think I'm on-board with that case. I don't mind that it allegedly makes a little noise. Like I said, rebuild when I can afford it. So my question now is: will the PSU and fans in that case be alright with overclocking a c2d?

And then there's the Radeon. Again, much cheaper to go with your suggestion here than the 8800 or something. But how does the Radeon stack up to the 8800? Is it up to the task of the current games I keep mentioning -- minus Crysis, of course? And there are, like, a lot of different ones. I mean, you linked me to a search page for the Radeon, and there are a whole bunch of cards from different manufacturers that, to my untrained eye, appear to be interchangeable. Is that right? Does it matter which Radeon card I get?

I'm narrowing things down, so more questions to come.. and then the monitor... and then I'll submit my list of what I plan to take to check-out for your approval.

Almost there!

[internisus]

Okay, how different are the Intel Dual-Core and the Core 2 Duo? The former is obviously cheaper, but my impression is that getting much out of it would require overclocking. Now, I intend to overclock, which is why I'm asking about the Athenatech case, but it sounds like the Dual-Core needs rather particular conditions, or maybe some degree of expertise?

What should I do here?

[internisus]

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I am looking at this hard drive, a Western Digital Caviar RE2 WD5000ABYS 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM. I was basically looking for a 500GB at around $100 (this is at $130), and I compared the average speed and cache stats in search listing. This one is 16 MB cache, which means nothing to me. Is this a good hard drive? Reviewers seem happy, so long as they avoid a DOA.

This seems to be a very similar drive for $20 less. I think there is a 2 millisecond difference in write speed, in which case I don't mind paying $20 more for the above drive. Any thoughts?

[internisus]

I just did a search on the monitor I'm using now, which says NEC multisync LCD 1530V on the front, and every result that came up was for a 15" monitor. That's great, because it means that I can be happy with the 19" you suggested before, Felix. So a quick newegg search shows me some good-looking results for 19" widescreen LCD monitors, like this and this and this.

But I really have no idea what to look for in a monitor, especially as a gamer who likes old or indie low-resolution stuff but wants to enjoy current games in hi-rez widescreen glory. Is that kind of adaptability quantifiable or something?

1440 x 900 seems to be standard widescreen resolution. Is that right?

Woah, I just found a 20" widescreen in 1680 x 1050 recommended for $180 after rebate. LINK There's got to be something wrong with this thing. It's 1080p (you know I don't even know what that means) and DVI -- what is that, is it a thing where I use a specialized cable to go from the back of the video card to the monitor or something? But man this is looking like a good monitor to buy. Check it for me, please!

I still need to pick a cheap DVD-R drive. And 2GB of RAM is good enough, right? And I do need a heatsink?

It's looking like I can do this for under $1000 including monitor. That's what I'm shooting for, at least. It would help if the motherboard I was looking at didn't cost $200.

[internisus]

OKAY HERE IS MY LIST SO FAR

Some costs are estimates for those items where I haven't narrowed to a specific part yet -- marked by ~.

$70 Athenatech case with 350W PSU
~$140Radeon 2600XT 512MB But which one?
~$160Core 2 Duo But which one?
~$100Motherboard But I need to find one that is not this costly.
$130Western Digital 500GB hard drive
$90Mushkin 2GB RAM with nice rebate!
$65 Thermalright Ultra-120 Extreme CPU Cooler heatsink Do I really need this? Could I go cheaper?
$180SCEPTRE 20" 5ms DVI Widescreen 1080p 1680 x 1050 LCD Monitor

$935 total! Amazing! Though I don't know if there are shipping charges.

So I'm really happy with this pricetag right now. I need to narrow down the processor, motherboard, and videocard, and I'd like to verify the goodness of the other items listed, as well as their compatibility. And please tell me whether I really need a $65 heatsink in that specific case with those specific fans (especially since processors come with fans and heatsinks of their own), and whether that power source and those fans can manage overclocking on the processor and videocard.

Though it sounds like the overclocking heat issue is more in the motherboard? is that what I have to worry about?

And I still don't understand the difference between a Core 2 Duo like this one and a Dual-Core. I guess the C2D is a newer thing? There are so many varieties of it -- is the one I linked there good enough?

I still can't believe what I can do for under a thousand dollars. This is great! I think I'll be ordering on Monday and hopefully building by Friday!

[internisus]

Thanks, I'll look into those things. Though I'm still hazy on the processor issue. I think I'm not really sold on the idea of overclocking. Rather, I'm not sure I should be choosing parts with the intent of overclocking when I'm going budget on the case, powersource, and cooling.

Plus, I'm not really interested so much in future proofing anymore. I'm giving that up. I just want a pretty great computer for right now that can do neat stuff and play Episode 2, STALKER, Bioshock, etc. And be a great DVD player. Those are the demands I intend to place on the hardware. Sure, I'll buy, say, Crysis when it comes out, and I'll play it on this machine. But if I can't max its settings, that's fine -- I'm sure it'll look great anyway! I'll upgrade down the road when I can afford it. This is just for right now.

So I'm not sure I should want to overclock. Let's say I get the Radeon 2600XT and that $75 Dual Core. Just running things default, would I see basically the best performance I could get on those games? What about a $145 Core 2? Do I really need to overclock, and won't I be spending more money on a mobo and heatsink if I do?

I feel like I should try to keep it cheap and simple and get power-hungry at a later date. All I really want is for someone to tell me, "Yes, with THIS processor and the Radeon you are going to be very happy playing the PC games you've been missing out on all year."

If I seem more reluctant than I did before, it's because I want to buy this shit and money is tight. If I don't nail the price -- if I decide that paying more for greater power is that important -- I'm going to have to wait another month or something to do this. And this is a long, long time coming.

[internisus]

I feel like kind of going back on the loose budget maximums I announced at the start of the thread. Realizing that I can put together the computer and get a good monitor for under $950 is virtually intoxicating. Really, I want to set my limit for this whole project at $1000 now, and that includes mouse and keyboard as well. I'll be able to afford some games and still have my next two months be financially secure even if I bring in nothing that whole time. Since I'm in an unstable place right now, that's important to me. Basically, either I compromise on the power and my "pro-sumer" drive or I can't do this.

I am thinking now that I should go with a monitor recommended for 1440 x 900 rather than the 1680 x 1050 SCEPTRE if only because I will get better performance at the lower resolution.

And the one thing I really would rather not compromise on is storage space. I've been frustrated by 40- and 80-gb drives for a long, long time, and it would feel just fantastic to have that 500gb. I'll be using this thing for a lot more than playing games.

Regarding the video card comparison, if this is really very noticably better than the Radeon HD 2600 I might be willing because that's only like $50-$60 more -- but only if I would be able to save elsewhere. If the 1950XT is going to require a nicer motherboard or a heatsink... The thing is, if I can get the 2600 for around $135, get a cheap micro mobo at like $60, and avoid needing a heatsink, the cost difference really adds up.

Remember, I'm thinking of this now as a pretty temporary machine. I doubt I'll go six months without swapping parts or rebuilding entirely. I've just got to have something right now, and if Bioshock is the only thing I'll really take a hit on then I'm happy to save money.

ON THE OTHER HAND, if I compromise and take a 250GB drive and substitute in the 1950XT, Panoptic's computer would probably only take me to $1100 total. I'm really torn here. I don't know what to do. I keep fluctuating back and forth between the need to budget and the thought that I can do a lot better for just a little more money.

Five minutes ago, half-way through writing this post, I was in Felix's camp, but now I'm thinking of building the Panoptic machine. It's a matter of willpower, I guess, but the more powerful computer with the compromise 1950XT could happen for only like $150 more total than what I was planning before. And shit, I'm sure I can sell something on ebay. Or donate sperm. And my only other planned purchase for some time is Phoenix Wright 3.

Please, tell me what I can expect from the 1950XT and the 2600 respectively at a resolution of 1440 x 900 for all three of: Episode 2, STALKER, and Bioshock. I mean, it feels like I would see top performance in the first two with either card and Bioshock would be the only noticeable difference. If you guys could break that down for me and describe the performance I can expect on those specific games, it would help me to visualize what I'd get for my money and be able to make a decision here.

I'm sorry for being such a pain and I really appreciate the efforts you're going to. Thanks a lot.




Edit: Another option is to really do a ridiculous job making this blog for work and charge like 30 hours. That would add some money to my coffer right away. I wonder if I can get away with it. What would a professional charge to put together a wordpress on a company's private domain with a customized visual theme? If 30 hours x $15 is less than that, even if the pro would only take like 20 minutes, then I wouldn't feel bad about it.

I can also go into the attic and see what I have to sell.



Edit 2: I feel like I'm dragging this out and it must be annoying. Felix, Panoptic, if you guys wouldn't mind making each of your cases one more time, I'll make a damned choice already and put together a final list, which I'll ask you to look over and make sure is sensible and compatible. Is that okay? We're almost done here, I think. Thanks again.

[internisus]

Thanks, Felix. And now I'm back in your camp again, just like that. Because that's a really attractive price figure. Although I feel the same way about unnecessary space in a case, since this is just going to be a temporary build that doesn't matter much to me.

ON THE OTHER HAND I could probably sell my 7 box sets of The West Wing for some extra money, and that's fine with me because it would give me an excuse to repurchase later in the form of that attractive single gift box.

So, Felix, you're saying that I can't expect too much in the way of performance with STALKER and Bioshock on a 2600, right?

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Hopefully you will, and since I'll be seeing it in person all the time I have no problem with that particular bias.

[internisus]

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Ah, ok.

Yeah, I just have to keep in mind that I'm going to be impressed basically no matter what... so I should be financially sensible about this.

I don't really like the Qpack, but I suppose I've never actually seen one in use either, so it might be nicer for me than the Athenatech just for novelty. Would any of your recommendations change if I decided to go with it?

[internisus]

Ah, don't worry about that. I'm inexperienced, not insane!

[internisus]

Is there anything current for which I would ever need DX10 capability?

[internisus]

If I take the X1950 over the 2600, can I still go with the whole Felix-brand budget plan? Either 350W or 500W, no additional cooling?

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But that's another $100! I mean, I might be willing to go from the 2600 to the X1950 -- I have to put together the total cost and see -- but the 8800 is too far. Why would you say that?

Someone said this on the X1950 reviews: "This card will run Bioshock and other recent games at highest settings with a nice FPS." So I'm thinking about it.

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Okay so I was going to post a FINAL LIST now but I've decided that it would be massively foolish of me to blow my money even on something I desire this greatly at such a time when I don't know when I'll see more money. I mean, if I had a way to develop $500 tonight, I would buy all of this tomorrow. It's frustrating because that's all the difference I would need to be okay with it; I'm right on the border. But it would be foolish to selfishly indulge myself in disregard of my financial responsibilities two months from now.

Hopefully I won't be waiting on this too much longer and I'll make it happen soon. Depending on how things go, I may even step things up by a few hundred to get a really good machine instead of the just-for-now version. Or maybe not. We'll see.

In the meantime, I think I'm pretty much set to make my choices now -- whatever approach I decide to take -- thanks to all of this advice. There is one last thing I'd like help with: I would appreciate recommendations for a nice keyboard and mouse. I'm not going to go in for a $200 Razer right now, of course, but some enjoyable, tactile equipment would be really nice. Should be good for gaming as well as browsing the internet and typing posts like this one. I'm not even sure whether I'd prefer a quiet keyboard or one with a satisfying clickity-clack.

If you guys could just suggest something for that, I should be set to put this on hold and let you know what I'm planning to buy when that time comes. Thanks again!

[internisus]

Been watching videos of Crysis lately and not sure anymore if I'll have the willpower to build a machine that costs less than $2000.